FROG JUICE (dermorphin)

[casallc]

"Racing regulators kept hearing the reports: trainers were giving their horses a powerful performance-enhancing potion drawn from the backs of a type of South American frog.
But for months postrace testing could not find the substance, a painkiller far more powerful than morphine. Then a lab in the Denver area tweaked its testing procedure, and in recent weeks more than 30 horses from four states have tested positive for the substance, dermorphin, which is suspected of helping horses run faster"
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/sport ... nted=print

As long as ANY raceday medications are allowed, people will continue to try to beat the system. Morphine and synthetic morphines will make horses run faster than they want to, the pain killing effect is not the primary reason for use. It is hard for people to understand that a drug that actually would slow down a human, will make a horse run faster - but it does. Horses and humans react differently to different drugs. Lasix only makes these drugs harder to detect.

[Brogan]

As long as ANY raceday medications are allowed, people will continue to try to beat the system.

Sorry, but some people will try to beat the system no matter what the raceday medication rules are.

[casallc]

As long as ANY raceday medications are allowed, people will continue to try to beat the system.

Sorry, but some people will try to beat the system no matter what the raceday medication rules are.

Yes, but their chances of getting caught is far greater without them. The first thing a needle trainer wants to do is get his horses on lasix.

[ageecee]

You think after what happened to Christophe Clemente and the year suspension he got would of been enough for these knuckleheads to not even try this drug on there horses.

I sure hope they come down hard on these trainers. One trainer was using this stuff for the last 2 years.

[bdw0617]

believe it or not and i don't know if it's the same thing but i know people who lick this stuff and get very very high. it's not something you see every day but it's don
i know exactly what frog you are talking about there is a documentary of the world deadtlist animals on netflix i watched a few months ago that talks about these frogs. It's a genus of Frogs that secrete this poison out of their glands. Even then, the various species of frogs have various potency of drug in their gland, like I believe the red one is relatively harmless while the orange one is considered to be one of the deadliest animals on the planet and are what the azetcs used to to tip their arrows with and would instantly kill a human. i believe this one is somewhere in the middle.

i don't know if you have ever seen the movie Apocalypo or not, the Mel Gibson movie he made about the incas a few years ago (great movie by the way best movie i saw all of last year) , there is a scene where jaguar paw is fighting off the tribe of i believe incas and he is using this frog to tip the arrows with a substance. this is that frog.

[TJ]

As long as ANY raceday medications are allowed, people will continue to try to beat the system.

Sorry, but some people will try to beat the system no matter what the raceday medication rules are.

Yes, but their chances of getting caught is far greater without them. The first thing a needle trainer wants to do is get his horses on lasix.

Hi Cas,
I remember when NY didn't want lasix because they said it causes a cloudy test....that was a very long time ago. As you know NY was the last racing jurisdiction to allow Lasix. That has long been dismissed after urine testing has been overshadowed with plasma testing....no cloudy test there. TJ
This from Dr. George Maylin....once director of the NYS Racing and Wagering Board's Equine Drug Testing Program at Morrisville State College.
“Furosemide does not interfere with drug detection, provided that it is administered at least four hours prior to racing and within an intravenous dose range of 250 to 500 mgs. New, ultra-sensitive instrumental testing, combined with the regulatory control outlined above, precludes the possibility of furosemide interference with drug testing.”

[TJ]

You think after what happened to Christophe Clemente and the year suspension he got would of been enough for these knuckleheads to not even try this drug on there horses.

I sure hope they come down hard on these trainers. One trainer was using this stuff for the last 2 years.

Hi AG,
Was that Christophe Clement or were you thinking of Patrick Biancone? If it was Biancone, which I think it may have been...he was caught for possession of 3 sealed vials of Alpha-Cobratoxin (cobra venom)....much more potent then the froggies and there currently is no test for it. TJ

[ageecee]

Yea TJ u correct it was Biancone my bad.

[griff]

did the track have a ban on cobra venom ? Or do they get to ban anything they find and don't like ??

same with frog juice? Does the track specifically ban frog juice or again, can they just decide being in possession of frog juice, any frog juice, is not allowed and can ban the trainer or owner that has any in his possession?

I don't think our law enforcement officials have that kind of authority when dealing with new artificial designe drugs like spice and such.


griff

[Dave C]

Griff - since the penalty is a civil, not criminal, penalty they have very broad scope for banning the use, and possession, of compounds that they classify as performance enhancing. Even within that broad scope, they have to use scientific evidence and a reasonable process if they don't want the courts to through out their decisions.

[TJ]

did the track have a ban on cobra venom ? Or do they get to ban anything they find and don't like ??

same with frog juice? Does the track specifically ban frog juice or again, can they just decide being in possession of frog juice, any frog juice, is not allowed and can ban the trainer or owner that has any in his possession?

I don't think our law enforcement officials have that kind of authority when dealing with new artificial designe drugs like spice and such.


griff

Hi griff,
Both these substances snake venom toxins and Dermorphin have been banned for use for years. They are very dangerous and will allow a horse to feel no pain whatsoever while running at full speed....therefore effectively eliminating his ability to be fore-warned via pain that he may be ready to break a leg. The horse won't even know it after he breaks it and goes down. Very bad stuff to use and a flagrant disregard for not only the rules, but the life of both the horse and rider. TJ

[xfactor fan]

If a trainer used snake or frog juice, and a jockey is hurt when the horse goes down, can the jockey go after the trainer? Or the local District Attorney if a jockey is killed?

[casallc]

As long as ANY raceday medications are allowed, people will continue to try to beat the system.

Sorry, but some people will try to beat the system no matter what the raceday medication rules are.

Yes, but their chances of getting caught is far greater without them. The first thing a needle trainer wants to do is get his horses on lasix.

Hi Cas,
I remember when NY didn't want lasix because they said it causes a cloudy test....that was a very long time ago. As you know NY was the last racing jurisdiction to allow Lasix. That has long been dismissed after urine testing has been overshadowed with plasma testing....no cloudy test there. TJ
This from Dr. George Maylin....once director of the NYS Racing and Wagering Board's Equine Drug Testing Program at Morrisville State College.
“Furosemide does not interfere with drug detection, provided that it is administered at least four hours prior to racing and within an intravenous dose range of 250 to 500 mgs. New, ultra-sensitive instrumental testing, combined with the regulatory control outlined above, precludes the possibility of furosemide interference with drug testing.”

Dr. Scot Waterman, executive director of the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium:
"All horses that win and those that are selected by the stewards for testing must report to the test barn at the racetrack immediately after the race. In the test barn, urine and blood samples are collected and are sent overnight to a forensic laboratory employed by the racing commission. Samples are screened for a wide variety of drugs by the laboratory. If there are no suspicious findings, the laboratory “clears” the sample. If there is a suspicious finding on the screening test, a more specific, “confirmatory” test is employed to either confirm or deny the screening test result. A positive is called if both tests are in agreement and the commission is notified of the result. Depending on the specific laboratory finding and the results of any investigation, the horse may be disqualified and the trainer penalized with a fine and/or suspension. Plasma is generally an easier medium for laboratories to perform quantitative analysis. Unfortunately, many drugs “leave” the plasma very quickly so not all drugs can be detected by plasma analysis alone."

Testing labs are like any other business - they need to make a profit. Using both urine and blood samples every time cuts into the profit. Since the urine test is the most comprehensive in detecting drugs (as explained above), it is usually the first test used. Regardless of what Dr. George Maylin "claims" he is incorrect, Check with the International Olympic Committee and most every other professional and amature sporting authority in the world who disagree:

"Diuretics in the sports world have another documented use.
Called "masking," it is when diuretics are used to speed the elimination of banned performance-enhancing substances from the body. This practice increases the users' chances of passing mandatory drug tests. Athletes using steroids, for instance, might attempt to rid their bodies of trace amounts of the banned drug by taking diuretics.

Many sports organizations have added diuretics and other masking agents to their list of banned substances. For example, the National Football League Players Association (NFLPA) mentions diuretic use in its steroid policy. The organization notes that "masking agents or diuretics used to hide [the presence of steroids and other performance-enhancing substances]" are considered "Prohibited Substances." Steroids, masking agents, diuretics, and other banned substances "have no legitimate place in professional football."
http://www.enotes.com/diuretics-referen ... ics-176962

[TJ]

As long as ANY raceday medications are allowed, people will continue to try to beat the system.

Sorry, but some people will try to beat the system no matter what the raceday medication rules are.

Yes, but their chances of getting caught is far greater without them. The first thing a needle trainer wants to do is get his horses on lasix.

Hi Cas,
I remember when NY didn't want lasix because they said it causes a cloudy test....that was a very long time ago. As you know NY was the last racing jurisdiction to allow Lasix. That has long been dismissed after urine testing has been overshadowed with plasma testing....no cloudy test there. TJ
This from Dr. George Maylin....once director of the NYS Racing and Wagering Board's Equine Drug Testing Program at Morrisville State College.
“Furosemide does not interfere with drug detection, provided that it is administered at least four hours prior to racing and within an intravenous dose range of 250 to 500 mgs. New, ultra-sensitive instrumental testing, combined with the regulatory control outlined above, precludes the possibility of furosemide interference with drug testing.”

Dr. Scot Waterman, executive director of the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium:
"All horses that win and those that are selected by the stewards for testing must report to the test barn at the racetrack immediately after the race. In the test barn, urine and blood samples are collected and are sent overnight to a forensic laboratory employed by the racing commission. Samples are screened for a wide variety of drugs by the laboratory. If there are no suspicious findings, the laboratory “clears” the sample. If there is a suspicious finding on the screening test, a more specific, “confirmatory” test is employed to either confirm or deny the screening test result. A positive is called if both tests are in agreement and the commission is notified of the result. Depending on the specific laboratory finding and the results of any investigation, the horse may be disqualified and the trainer penalized with a fine and/or suspension. Plasma is generally an easier medium for laboratories to perform quantitative analysis. Unfortunately, many drugs “leave” the plasma very quickly so not all drugs can be detected by plasma analysis alone."

Testing labs are like any other business - they need to make a profit. Using both urine and blood samples every time cuts into the profit. Since the urine test is the most comprehensive in detecting drugs (as explained above), it is usually the first test used. Regardless of what Dr. George Maylin "claims" he is incorrect, Check with the International Olympic Committee and most every other professional and amature sporting authority in the world who disagree:

"Diuretics in the sports world have another documented use.
Called "masking," it is when diuretics are used to speed the elimination of banned performance-enhancing substances from the body. This practice increases the users' chances of passing mandatory drug tests. Athletes using steroids, for instance, might attempt to rid their bodies of trace amounts of the banned drug by taking diuretics.

Many sports organizations have added diuretics and other masking agents to their list of banned substances. For example, the National Football League Players Association (NFLPA) mentions diuretic use in its steroid policy. The organization notes that "masking agents or diuretics used to hide [the presence of steroids and other performance-enhancing substances]" are considered "Prohibited Substances." Steroids, masking agents, diuretics, and other banned substances "have no legitimate place in professional football."
http://www.enotes.com/diuretics-referen ... ics-176962

Hi Cas,
Ok, maybe you're right and he doesn't know what he's talking about...I don't know that Vet, but I do know NY was the last to allow lasix because they were worried about cloudy urine tests covering up something else as you stated....and this vet worked for the NYS testing Lab, you would think he would not be as sure as he seems to be in that statement. But the way lasix is administered today is not the way it was years ago either....many, back then, did shoot for the cloudy test because they got a "cocktail" along with their lasix in the jugular. Under todays conditions the amount administered is restricted and the shot can not be given closer than 4 hours to post time.....and supposedly being administered under these conditions it would help limit cloudy urine tests. Bottom line, it seems like it will be a mute point anyway. I was talking with a prominent NY vet yesterday....he seems to think there is no doubt that lasix will be banned in NY. TJ

[casallc]

You think after what happened to Christophe Clemente and the year suspension he got would of been enough for these knuckleheads to not even try this drug on there horses.

I sure hope they come down hard on these trainers. One trainer was using this stuff for the last 2 years.

Hi AG,
Was that Christophe Clement or were you thinking of Patrick Biancone? If it was Biancone, which I think it may have been...he was caught for possession of 3 sealed vials of Alpha-Cobratoxin (cobra venom)....much more potent then the froggies and there currently is no test for it. TJ

Cobra venom and dermorphin are two different types of drug. Cobra venom is like a nerve block and dermorphin is a synthetic morphine. Morphine makes horses and cats (don't ask me how I know) hyper and want to run, where cobra venom is used to block out pain - which is more dangerous and insidious. The pain killing effect is not the prime reason for the use of frog juice.