Horse Slaughter, the next chapter - you should read this!

[ratherrapid]

Kami Brooks--when you post that something is "propoganda coming from the (evil)beef industry"--it would be nice if you'd substantiate your claim. This post is an example of the problem--a small, very loud minority that outscreams everybody while somehow managing to avoid basic fact and common sense.

Your post is the propoganda. Let's be clear. Click on the website. take notice the numerous horse organizations behind that article.

Summerhorse--I appreciate the time you took to state your position. Basically, I disagree. Your points:

I would support anyone to find the most humane method of slaughtering any animal. But, would you please quit confusing the question of anti-slaughter with the method of slaughter.

Second: you post that there's never been any correlation found between stopping slaughter and horse neglect. Even if that were the only question of the effect of banning slaugther, if a "correlation" has been scientifically drawn, which I doubt since there's generally been the option of the slaugher plant somewhere, it's rather difficult to fathom that flooding the market with 50,000 unwanted horses would fail to increase neglect. Defies comprehension.

Third: your starry eyed view of adoption. The county analogy again. Guess it has to be pointed out. There are urban counties. There are mountain counties. There are counties too poor to afford their own schools. What counties in Mississippi are going to adopt horses. You bring 1000 horses to Kansas City for adoption and you'll be lucky to get 10 takers. And 7 out of 10 of those adopted horses will be in the same situation within the year.

So, if you close the plants, where does that leave your 50,000 unwanteds for this year? There's a lot of problems with "anti-slaughter", but maybe the most significant one is that "almost everybody" (few exceptions of course) that deals with animals prefers humane death to neglect and abuse. That's what it boils down to.

[luvthegame]

To all

I've been following along and it seems the theme should be that many on this topic simply want to tell others what they can and cant do. Or what they can raise or not raise. I guess to satisfy them we need to ask permission when ever we breed any horse any where, since most of us just aren't raising good enough horses. It is clear to me that many on this sublect do not know the facts. Opinions of those that do not own any horses should not control the opinions of those that own many. I am in an area thousands of miles from Canada and Mexico. I am involved in horse in just about every way and sadly adoptions donations and help are running out and horses are severly suffering. The new went away and our team is dwindling. Last winter we took in 200 and rented awesome green wheat pasture and treated them like kings only to find when they were fat and healthy no one wanted them for whatever reasons. neglect is rampant dont kid yourself. There are more horses by the thousands than people to save them. Love and cherish the babysitter or the great broodmare or old retired racehorse, but dont make someone have to feed the savage that no one can control or ride or the one that could flip and injure a rider. People that own horses should vote and you get a vote for each horse you own. If dont own any you dont vote at all. If you own 100 you get 100. I think then you would see the truth in all of this.

[casallc]

I take offense to this statement. I can pick a horse out from a cow at 50 feet - without my much-needed glasses! You are generalizing and categorizing those who are against horse slaughter without any basis on fact.

MOST

Cassallc
An interesting perspective, given that the Myth/Truth information you posted is propoganda originating from the beef industry (among others) and has been repeatedly proven to be riddled with bad logic and mis-information.

Here is the origin of your post: http://www.commonhorsesense.com/myth_fact_sheet.html

The videos and sob stories from the other side are not propaganda? Would you please point out the untruths and back it with your facts?
(seems to me the beef industry would benifit from banning horse slaughter since the market would increase for beef - try using logic instead of hysteria)

[casallc]

If Casallac can post something that is in my opinion and others is repulsive then I should be able to respond with what I think about them because of their post. I don't know anyone that would post something like casallac did and be a nice person. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

If this is their way of thinking regarding horses, I don't think they should own any. I have worked in the industry for 30 years, I took out my trainers license in MD (1983 - 1984), I have managed farms and been an assistant trainer to 3 trainers in MD. I have owned a racehorse, pinhooked (one horse) and now own a mare. I am always complimented on how my horses look. I've never had any trouble getting excercise riders for my yearlings because my reputation at that training track was excellent. Reputation working with horses is very important.

I don't like reading the posting of someone who has no respect for this noble animal. I have no respect of them.

If you have a problem with my responses to casallac's repulsive postings, don't read them.

winds

I'm usually a very mellow happy go lucky person, but this hits a nerve.

I have been in the horse business for over 40 years (that is adult years not counting as a child or when I was in the Army) I actually made a living as a trainer, owner, breeder and a horse trader. I have probably owned over 1000 horses of various breeds and stood several champions at stud. I made money in the horse business because I treated it as a business but I fed my horses before I fed my family. Every horse I ever had also had a price tag on it. Horses are like any other business product, the idea is to turn a profit. Horses are either an asset or a liability, if you don't cull the liabilities you will be out of business quickly. If a dairy cow gets old she goes to the canners, if a 15 yearold mare prolapses or tears her cervix she needs to go the the canners also. Problem is - there are no canners any more unless they are shipped to Mexico or Canada which will factor into the already low price. There are horses that have no value other than zoo food or export. You are naive if you think all are majestic animals - some are just knotheads and some are dangerous. Kill plants do a service to keep the market up on horses and to provide an outlet for the unadoptable ones. Back when banks still loaned money on horses I would appraise stock for banks - as I would tell owners and bankers the value of all horses starts at what they weigh and goes up from there depending on their potential as a breeder or performer. Unfortunately the value of all horses dropped when the slaughter plants closed.

[kezeli]

This is a very passionate topic and it seems everyone has a different oppion. The biggest problem I can see with this issue is the humanity or lack there of in slaughter. If a humane method was devised this would be a much less hot topic, and if the transportation was also addressed and policed. But as it stands it is NOT a humane death. Someone mentioned a head shot, well that would work but I can't see the slaughter houses allowing projectiles in the work place. I really don't know what the answer is but as it stands the system is broken and atleast needs to be fixed with regard to humane treatment of these horses. Also euthasol is $12.45 a bottle, it takes the whole bottle but thats pretty cheap, less than the gas to where ever(Can. or Mex)

[casallc]

This is a very passionate topic and it seems everyone has a different oppion. The biggest problem I can see with this issue is the humanity or lack there of in slaughter. If a humane method was devised this would be a much less hot topic, and if the transportation was also addressed and policed. But as it stands it is NOT a humane death. Someone mentioned a head shot, well that would work but I can't see the slaughter houses allowing projectiles in the work place. I really don't know what the answer is but as it stands the system is broken and atleast needs to be fixed with regard to humane treatment of these horses. Also euthasol is $12.45 a bottle, it takes the whole bottle but thats pretty cheap, less than the gas to where ever(Can. or Mex)

Horse slaughter was the most highly regulated of any USDA plants. Bleeding hearts have done their part to shut down the horse business just as the spotted owl controversy shut down the timber industry. We now find the spotted owl are plentiful and will dwell in K-Mart signs. We will also find this to cause more starving horses. Behind all the rhetoric you will find the radical vegan movement that will do what ever to ban all meat production.

[KamiBrooks]

Kami Brooks--when you post that something is "propoganda coming from the (evil)beef industry

For the record, I did not say the beef industry is evil. I am not against the beef industry or even the slaughter industry. Unlike horse slaughter, huge amounts of money have been put into research to improve handling of beef at slaughter houses because it has a direct impact on the profits of the American cattle industry.

[BridledObsession]

Behind all the rhetoric you will find the radical vegan movement that will do what ever to ban all meat production.

Ok, really? I wasn't going to comment any more on this thread as I think some people have said it better than I ever could, but that was my chuckle for the day.

I apologize if you're serious, but that's the first time I've ever heard that conspiracy theory. Radical vegans don't have enough energy due to lack of protein to be a real threat to anyone.

[spex4me]

I apologize if you're serious, but that's the first time I've ever heard that conspiracy theory. Radical vegans don't have enough energy due to lack of protein to be a real threat to anyone.

hehehehhe unless it's a soy burger, soy has a lot of protein they say. ROFLMAO!!!

[KamiBrooks]

The videos and sob stories from the other side are not propaganda?

My response was to your statement that all information for the anti-slaughter side is NOT based on fact.

Would you please point out the untruths and back it with your facts?

I will post these links for now to avoid taking up space here:
http://www.equinewebdesign.com/horse-slaughter/information/18200483941.html
http://www.equinewebdesign.com/horse-slaughter/in-the-press/20040620233215.html

I have to do more research to find the point-by-point rebutal that has been compiled to the Myth/Truth piece because that was from a long time ago. So I will post that over the weekend.

(seems to me the beef industry would benifit from banning horse slaughter since the market would increase for beef - try using logic instead of hysteria)

Actually not. American horse slaughter is a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket compared to the pounds of beef produced in the US. Its existance is not a financial factor from a point of products sold.

But any humane treatment laws related to any "livestock" are a BIG issue for them. The USDA has been pressured into establishing humane slaughter regulations, then further pressured into providing adequate reporting based on them. That reporting show that they do not meet the minimal standards already established. Any new standards, such as feeding/watering animals in transport, would make their situation even worse.

If I am comming off as "hysterical", then by all means please quote my hysterical statements so that I may learn to communicate better.

On the other hand, I honestly don't understand the intense emotional response from the pro-slaughter side of this issue. Under the proposed legislation:

(A) You can still sell your horses any way you want to. Auction houses are not going to close up shop just because there isn't a slaughter outlet for horses. Horse traders will continue to exist just as they always have. Most "Kill Buyers" are no more than horse traders anyway.

(B) You can still kill your horse in any legal way that you could do in the past. I would think the number of private individuals that actually hauled horses to slaughter plants are quite low and mostly limited to the horse traders mentioned above. So as an industry, horse traders are impacted. But then again the trucking industry has had to deal with all sorts of new regulations. My industry pukes out new regulations all the time. I have to learn them and comply or get out. The Quarter Horse breed isn't going to cease to exist because the registry is now refusing HYPP Y/Y horses. You roll with the punches, its that simple.

(C) Neglected horses are more a function of economy and mental illness than the availability of slaughter. Those who would haul to auction to get rid of horses will still be able to do that, even if the bill is passed. Oddly enough, many hold onto horses that they can't care for out of fear that 'old nelly' will end up on a slaughter truck. Estray horses (horse not contained on their owner's land) already exist in some areas (e.g. the swampy areas of FL). This HAS BEEN the case for a long time even though the option of auctions and slaughter are available.

(D) The bill does not require the government to take on these "unwanted" horses. Communities will absorb excess horeses in the same way as they always have. (Please provide me the language of the bill that requires the government to take ownership of ANY unwanted horse)

So, in my opinion, except for the people making a profit off of the slaughter pipeline, the extreme emotional response from the pro-slaughter side is confusing.

[casallc]

The videos and sob stories from the other side are not propaganda?

My response was to your statement that all information for the anti-slaughter side is NOT based on fact.

Would you please point out the untruths and back it with your facts?

I will post these links for now to avoid taking up space here:
http://www.equinewebdesign.com/horse-slaughter/information/18200483941.html
http://www.equinewebdesign.com/horse-slaughter/in-the-press/20040620233215.html

I have to do more research to find the point-by-point rebutal that has been compiled to the Myth/Truth piece because that was from a long time ago. So I will post that over the weekend.

(seems to me the beef industry would benifit from banning horse slaughter since the market would increase for beef - try using logic instead of hysteria)

Actually not. American horse slaughter is a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket compared to the pounds of beef produced in the US. Its existance is not a financial factor from a point of products sold.

But any humane treatment laws related to any "livestock" are a BIG issue for them. The USDA has been pressured into establishing humane slaughter regulations, then further pressured into providing adequate reporting based on them. That reporting show that they do not meet the minimal standards already established. Any new standards, such as feeding/watering animals in transport, would make their situation even worse.

If I am comming off as "hysterical", then by all means please quote my hysterical statements so that I may learn to communicate better.

On the other hand, I honestly don't understand the intense emotional response from the pro-slaughter side of this issue. Under the proposed legislation:

(A) You can still sell your horses any way you want to. Auction houses are not going to close up shop just because there isn't a slaughter outlet for horses. Horse traders will continue to exist just as they always have. Most "Kill Buyers" are no more than horse traders anyway.

(B) You can still kill your horse in any legal way that you could do in the past. I would think the number of private individuals that actually hauled horses to slaughter plants are quite low and mostly limited to the horse traders mentioned above. So as an industry, horse traders are impacted. But then again the trucking industry has had to deal with all sorts of new regulations. My industry pukes out new regulations all the time. I have to learn them and comply or get out. The Quarter Horse breed isn't going to cease to exist because the registry is now refusing HYPP Y/Y horses. You roll with the punches, its that simple.

(C) Neglected horses are more a function of economy and mental illness than the availability of slaughter. Those who would haul to auction to get rid of horses will still be able to do that, even if the bill is passed. Oddly enough, many hold onto horses that they can't care for out of fear that 'old nelly' will end up on a slaughter truck. Estray horses (horse not contained on their owner's land) already exist in some areas (e.g. the swampy areas of FL). This HAS BEEN the case for a long time even though the option of auctions and slaughter are available.

(D) The bill does not require the government to take on these "unwanted" horses. Communities will absorb excess horeses in the same way as they always have. (Please provide me the language of the bill that requires the government to take ownership of ANY unwanted horse)

So, in my opinion, except for the people making a profit off of the slaughter pipeline, the extreme emotional response from the pro-slaughter side is confusing.

Your link is bogus. Temple Grandin is an anti-slaughter activist. Hardly an objective source. The other parts are misleading, out of date or irrelevant. Like the part about horses still being hauled in double deckers. That law was not effective till last December. Cattle are routinely hauled in double deckers - you say cattle get better treatment, horses cannot be hauled in double deckers. Blind or lame horses cannot be hauled to slaughter - cattle can.
How about the people making money off of "rescue" scams?

[griff]

What would be wrong with breeding and raising say coldbloods for meat?

I'm not talking about taking your pets out of your barns but breeding and raising coldblood horses specifically for the purpose of providing horse meat to those that like horse meat.

Why is it OK to slaughter a pig who has an IQ at least 10 times that of a horse and it's not OK to slaughter and eat a horse.

Livestock is livestock.

griff

[spex4me]

While there is a market I don't think that there is as a tremendous demand for horse meat as it is for pork. I think even though I abhor slaughter of horses, it was a niche that Americans used for the disposal of an alreadly overabundant and unwanted horse population. Each of us has some personal responsibility and there are those who chose to say laissez faire and not be responsible for any living creature they produce.

I am sure that there are ppl who love pigs as much as we do horses and think that should be stopped. And maybe it could be if not that generations of us were brought up on juicy steaks and fragrant bacon in the morning, rather than equus du jour.

I think all of us know it sucks (horse slaughter) but I think the majority of ppl would be less prone to protest it if we knew it was done with some compassion. Afterall the horse is what carried man to battle to home and through out history, thus branding it a noble benefactor for us. Plus it just would not have looked the same charging into battle on the back a swine or sheep. jm thoughts.

[KamiBrooks]

Your link is bogus. Temple Grandin is an anti-slaughter activist. Hardly an objective source.

The Myth/Truth piece originated from a web site/organization originally registered to the attorney who was defending the Texas slaughter house. It has since been moved to a PR firm. So how is that any less "Bogus" or any more "objective"? Yet it is to be taken at face value as based on "facts" when none are given within the Myth/Truth.

The other parts are misleading, out of date or irrelevant.

Out of Date - and yet that link was writen in response to the Myth/Truth piece, so that tells everyone how old that piece is. Misleading/irrelevant - I have said the same about the Myth/Truth piece. I will support my claims over this weekend.

To, any that believe the Myth/Truth piece to be true/factual, I would enjoy reading any material or sources that you can provide that support the claims made in that piece. Point me to the evidence that the lack of slaughter (as opposed to the economics and mental health issues) has increased the number of neglect cases. Point me to where any government agency will be required to take ownership of any horse as a result of the lack of slaughter. Provide proof of any claim made in that document at all.

Despite that fact that the pro-slaughter have been crying that the horse market will bottom out, that has happened even with slaughter available.

(a) Fuel has increased the cost of everything from farm calls, to supplies (tack, equipment, et) to feed. Weather conditions have not favored forages. Available forages have been further stressed by increased requirements in states where blue toung has prevented the sale of many animals that would have moved futher down the production line forcing farms to feed animals that never planned on keeping. Feed crops prices are driven up by transport fees and the fact that they're being diverted to ethanol. We are now well into the standard fall 'culling' period. Breeders already have the 2008 crop on the way - despite all the evidence that its doesn't make sense (how many broodmares have you seen dumped?). With all those conditions, horse prices are going to fall no mater if slaughter is available or not.

(b) Breed specific breeders reduce the value of their own horses by over breeding and using poor quality animals. At one time the arabian was an extremely expensive breed. Massive breeding has corrupted the breed's original form and greatly reduced their overall value. I can get a registered trained egyptian arabian (that is actually a good example of the breed and under 10yo) at the sale for under $200 almost any week of the year. The Friesian was once an endangered breed and only available by import. There are now approved US stallions and massive numbers of non approved stallions standing in the US. What was once a $20k foal is now a $5k - $7k foal. The majority of QH and Paints in the US are valued at or below $750 (by the people who are selling them), so this is a good example of breeds who's price reflects how over populated they are. And then there are the grade hores ranging from sport horses to just plain never been registered. So the horse market is bottoming out by their own doing. Availability of slaughter is just a nice 'scape goat' for what will continue with or without the availability of slaughter.

[KamiBrooks]

What would be wrong with breeding and raising say coldbloods for meat?

Why is it OK to slaughter a pig who has an IQ at least 10 times that of a horse and it's not OK to slaughter and eat a horse.

There is a mare's milk industry in Europe, so the off spring I would assume are going to slaughter there. They do use draft and draft crosses. Since horse meat is not eaten in America, I can't see a use for it here. There is a small market in Canada, but they are already fully supplied by their own farms and the remains of the PMU industry.

Here is just one organization that is concerned with the humane treatment of all farmed animals in the US http://www.farmsanctuary.org/campaign/index.htm I'm sure they would appreciate your support. I don't think the conditions for cattle, pigs, etc is discussed here because this is a horse discussion group. But there are several organizations (not PETA and not vegans) concerned with humane treatment of the animals on the farm and during the slaughter process.

In the end, the solution for humane treatment will come from Americans who refuse to buy meats from factory farms and insist on grass fed, organic or certified humane raised and handled (http://www.certifiedhumane.org/faq.html).

BTW, Certified Humane is a growing selling point at many resturaunts. Chefs and customers claim that is is a better tasting meat. Actually, there are a lot of disgusting things about the factory farming process (basically meats sold at Walmart type stores) from contaminants to the CO2 treatement that keeps it looking 'red' way past the time its spoiled. To me, its worth it to find a local butcher shop. Mine buys from the Amish, so basically grass fed, hormone free w/o the additional costs of labels like 'organic'.