It is such a complicated problem and though we, because of our connection, focus on the TB, the situation has no boundaries. For many years, I volunteered at local rescues and even 30 years ago the enormity of problems was evident.
I came across an interesting article and thus the link below. It suggests that there is a direct correlation between the availability of land and the high cost of horse care. I had never really thought too much about the relationship, but according to USDA statistics approximately 6000 acres of land (open range, forest, marsh, etc.) in both the public and private domain are lost each day. It appears that this land is not recoverable. It also suggests that there is a migration of the horse industry toward closer proximity to urban areas rather than rural thus a higher cost of horse care and shelter.
I've got to agree that often "judgement" is flawed or ill considered, but I also believe in the free market. As a business (free market hopefully supported by good judgement,) farming and related agriculture (including racing, etc.) has always been able to skirt the margins of solid financial business practices. Inflated horse prices at auctions are one example. High breeding costs is another. The cost of grains and processed feed is jumping through the roof. Wastage has never been an issue that the horse industry has wanted to fully address. I was reading one of my very old Stud Managers Books (1950's) and one of the interviews (paraphrased) related the story of an owner who had just purchased a well pedigreed very nice looking colt at a very hefty price. He went to this well known trainer and elaborated on the quality and abilities of the horse and its winning future to which the trainer replied, "you really don't know what you have, do you? Until we get a bridle and saddle on this colt, I will have to assume you have nothing and we'll start from there." I think the high purchase price for the colt was $8K but then that was the 50's for you.
The cost of doing business today is overwhelming for the vast majority of horse people. Answers and solutions are needed now and it is time that the key industry leaders step to the plate and provide those solutions. I know of no horse that can be cared for on a set per diem basis as was suggested in the NY Times article. The NTRA, etc. has to do better than that. It is really a joy to see some of the older horses running and maybe there will be an expansion of races for seven plus. I wouldn't mind that a bit.
Certainly, all of this begs for us to ask the question, how do we afford in the future to care for and shelter our horses?
http://www.elcr.org/index.php
Ex-Racehorses Starve as Charity Fails in Mission to Care for
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Love you Shammy Davis!sorry hit submit topic too soon..
The area I'm at is having a MAJOR issue with land for equine access. There are some forest preserves that have riding paths in the "upper class" areas, but what used to be our farm locally where my family kept our horses in now a darned condo community. It make me sick to see that being dug up as 2 of our beloved boys were buried out there.
I recently found out the farm in Lexington where we used to board, the owner is considering developing it! That should be outlawed IMHO in Lexington, especially! There are big fancy private homes on there, some smaller homes, all lived in and cared for by the owners of the horses. This will impact them severely. I'm glad we got our own place, its in a more secluded area.
The boarding fees for the area I'm in, far NE IL, for full board is sky high, I'm talking like apartment rent, $650-800 and up in some fancy smancy places. Who could afford that??
Thanks for posting that most interesting article Shammy
The area I'm at is having a MAJOR issue with land for equine access. There are some forest preserves that have riding paths in the "upper class" areas, but what used to be our farm locally where my family kept our horses in now a darned condo community. It make me sick to see that being dug up as 2 of our beloved boys were buried out there.
I recently found out the farm in Lexington where we used to board, the owner is considering developing it! That should be outlawed IMHO in Lexington, especially! There are big fancy private homes on there, some smaller homes, all lived in and cared for by the owners of the horses. This will impact them severely. I'm glad we got our own place, its in a more secluded area.
The boarding fees for the area I'm in, far NE IL, for full board is sky high, I'm talking like apartment rent, $650-800 and up in some fancy smancy places. Who could afford that??
Thanks for posting that most interesting article Shammy
We will NEVER see another Ruffian......
It is silly to think how high board prices are. $650-$850 is almost cheap if it is a higher end farm and there is no foal, weanling or yearling on that board bill, and no vet work included!
Personally if I was a land owner (which I am not, d'uh-losing) and a developer came to me with a price that blew my eye balls out with the amount of $$$$$$ on it. I would hand him the keys out of my back pocket, roll up shop, give my boarders 30 days notice and find a hammock in Montego Bay!
I don't think it should be illegal to sell your land to developers no matter where you are, as ALL of the united states once needed to be developed. Now we are developing into bigger, better, and more energy efficent homes. Our barns are also following suit! Bigger, Better, more cost effective and energy efficent. We (for the most part) find it acceptable to keep horses in tabbaco and shed style barns.
Bottom Line about PETA is they don't like ANYONE or ANYTHING having to do with animals used in context beyond sitting in our house, and even then they have problems with the title of "ownership" of an animal..Whatever,,
I would go to the grocery store to get a PETA representative to eat before I would hunt down something, maybe that makes me a canibal or maybe I think I may like to eat a PETA person.. I think all the corn feed meat might be tasty.. "Hello Clarice..."
Slaughter stats are sad, and the pot is mostly made up on mutt or "grade" horses. All of them have a history, but I believe the TB industry and the AQHA are used a scapegoats so often because they are the most organized breed associations that are out there. When fingers need to be pointed they are pointed toward them.
Personally if I was a land owner (which I am not, d'uh-losing) and a developer came to me with a price that blew my eye balls out with the amount of $$$$$$ on it. I would hand him the keys out of my back pocket, roll up shop, give my boarders 30 days notice and find a hammock in Montego Bay!
I don't think it should be illegal to sell your land to developers no matter where you are, as ALL of the united states once needed to be developed. Now we are developing into bigger, better, and more energy efficent homes. Our barns are also following suit! Bigger, Better, more cost effective and energy efficent. We (for the most part) find it acceptable to keep horses in tabbaco and shed style barns.
Bottom Line about PETA is they don't like ANYONE or ANYTHING having to do with animals used in context beyond sitting in our house, and even then they have problems with the title of "ownership" of an animal..Whatever,,
I would go to the grocery store to get a PETA representative to eat before I would hunt down something, maybe that makes me a canibal or maybe I think I may like to eat a PETA person.. I think all the corn feed meat might be tasty.. "Hello Clarice..."
Slaughter stats are sad, and the pot is mostly made up on mutt or "grade" horses. All of them have a history, but I believe the TB industry and the AQHA are used a scapegoats so often because they are the most organized breed associations that are out there. When fingers need to be pointed they are pointed toward them.
For many years I made considerable income by buying large farms and ranches, then dividing them up into smaller more affordable, desirable pieces. One such was Highpointe Farm & Training Center outside of Louisville. Our group of investors made substantial profit in a few months of ownership just by dividing and flipping a decaying former showplace bought from foreign investors wanting to bail out. I’d bet we were the only ones who have turned a real profit on it in 40 years. With the value of real estate today, one would have to be a total idiot to think they could even break even raising any kind of livestock (especially horses) anywhere except the most desolate areas of the country.
When you put the pencil to it, there is no ROI except increasing land values that would probably be better if a horse was never on the land. In today’s market I wouldn't touch one of the deals I used to do. Today I'll stick to tax certificate sales. The days of flipping houses, land AND horses are over, as a method of becoming wealthy.
When you put the pencil to it, there is no ROI except increasing land values that would probably be better if a horse was never on the land. In today’s market I wouldn't touch one of the deals I used to do. Today I'll stick to tax certificate sales. The days of flipping houses, land AND horses are over, as a method of becoming wealthy.
Last edited by cng on Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shammy Davis
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It is important to note that the loss of available land, either private or public, is not necessarily a result of high density developers or over zealous naturalists, it is often something as simple as re-zoning, rivers flooding over serviceable land, community infrastructure and construction, poor use of agricultural land, changes in agricultural futures, or an area suffering economic decline. The list of reason for condensed land availability and use is probably very long.
PETA is another issue. I don't go there anymore.
I know in the Charlottesville, VA area, the Farmington Hunt was recently recognized for it efforts to put land aside for its conservation value. Thousands and thousands of beautiful countryside acres have been placed in conservation easements and protected forever. It's a win situation for this very horsey area and makes the land available to equestrian events and opportunities which might not survive into the future.
Every equine community that I've been associated with (KS, OK, AZ, NC, MD, and VA) has its own uniqueness and personality. The cost of working in the equine industry is considerably different from area to area, from vocation to vocation, and from barn to barn. What is one man's pricey barn is another man's tool shed. In regard to the breed associations, the situation will get worse because unwanted horses are going to be a glut on the market. No one should suggest or demand that they carry the full burden or expense, but rightfully they should take a far greater leadership role to find solutions. I attended a conference in Wichita, KS many years back when the QH and Paint Associations were dealing with the issue of multiple embryos and surrogate mares. At the time, horse slaughter was legal and "yes, Clarice" in full operation. I heard many at the conference speak to the issue of wastage and some even suggested that horse slaughter and meat packing would relieve the glut of unwanted horses which all agreed would be a problem. As this was mostly a western audience, I was not surprised to hear that view, but had the conference been held in Gladstone, NJ the rumblings would have been heard from there to the moon and back.
Well, horse slaughter is no longer available as a part of the solution.
PETA is another issue. I don't go there anymore.
I know in the Charlottesville, VA area, the Farmington Hunt was recently recognized for it efforts to put land aside for its conservation value. Thousands and thousands of beautiful countryside acres have been placed in conservation easements and protected forever. It's a win situation for this very horsey area and makes the land available to equestrian events and opportunities which might not survive into the future.
Every equine community that I've been associated with (KS, OK, AZ, NC, MD, and VA) has its own uniqueness and personality. The cost of working in the equine industry is considerably different from area to area, from vocation to vocation, and from barn to barn. What is one man's pricey barn is another man's tool shed. In regard to the breed associations, the situation will get worse because unwanted horses are going to be a glut on the market. No one should suggest or demand that they carry the full burden or expense, but rightfully they should take a far greater leadership role to find solutions. I attended a conference in Wichita, KS many years back when the QH and Paint Associations were dealing with the issue of multiple embryos and surrogate mares. At the time, horse slaughter was legal and "yes, Clarice" in full operation. I heard many at the conference speak to the issue of wastage and some even suggested that horse slaughter and meat packing would relieve the glut of unwanted horses which all agreed would be a problem. As this was mostly a western audience, I was not surprised to hear that view, but had the conference been held in Gladstone, NJ the rumblings would have been heard from there to the moon and back.
Well, horse slaughter is no longer available as a part of the solution.
Last edited by Shammy Davis on Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Crystal LOL on that Clarice statement!!!! OMG I had to read it again.
I said dividing up land tongue in cheek, as I know land is a person's own property, they can do as they please.
Now if anyone wants to make some serious dough, up here where I live is one of the most expensive per capita counties! We have the exclusive town called Lake Forest, IL (it made the news when Mr. T cut down all the trees on his mansion's property) and it seems to carry over into all the other towns, villages in the county.
The areas, sadly, for horse keeping is dwindling, unless you are wealthy enough to have the dough to buy your own amount of land, pray that they do not code it "not equine" and make you get your beloved animals that have been there for years, out.
Simple apartments have gone up at minimum $300-400/month, yet you get nothing more for your buck.
That is why I am looking in the Lexington area. I was shocked at how reasonable the rents are there, plus we have our farm there for the cost of what one board up here would cost.
Crystal, I am so sorry, I just saw you kindly put your email address on for me to contact you. I will be doing that. I've been to Lexington a number of times but when you actually move somewhere, you need advice! Thank you so much.
I said dividing up land tongue in cheek, as I know land is a person's own property, they can do as they please.
Now if anyone wants to make some serious dough, up here where I live is one of the most expensive per capita counties! We have the exclusive town called Lake Forest, IL (it made the news when Mr. T cut down all the trees on his mansion's property) and it seems to carry over into all the other towns, villages in the county.
The areas, sadly, for horse keeping is dwindling, unless you are wealthy enough to have the dough to buy your own amount of land, pray that they do not code it "not equine" and make you get your beloved animals that have been there for years, out.
Simple apartments have gone up at minimum $300-400/month, yet you get nothing more for your buck.
That is why I am looking in the Lexington area. I was shocked at how reasonable the rents are there, plus we have our farm there for the cost of what one board up here would cost.
Crystal, I am so sorry, I just saw you kindly put your email address on for me to contact you. I will be doing that. I've been to Lexington a number of times but when you actually move somewhere, you need advice! Thank you so much.
We will NEVER see another Ruffian......
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Shammy Davis
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erhrdt3 posted:
I can vouch for Crystal, she is a very nice person and a wonderful resource. If she says she is going to help you, she does just that.
cng posted:
Hope you put some of that profit into a hefty retirement nest egg. You were smart to change your focus, because I've got a number of friends in the real estate business, construction, and development who are simply dead in the water. I've got a couple really close friends who are surveyors and they have taken part-time jobs unrelated to their vocations. We live in an extremely rural area and the number of unoccupied residences and farms is muliplying from month to month. Current appraisal values for many dropped 30 to 40 percent below previous market values. JMO but I think the day of building value or equity in land is gone forever.
. . . That is why I am looking in the Lexington area. I was shocked at how reasonable the rents are there, plus we have our farm there for the cost of what one board up here would cost.
Crystal, I am so sorry, I just saw you kindly put your email address on for me to contact you. I will be doing that. I've been to Lexington a number of times but when you actually move somewhere, you need advice! Thank you so much.
I can vouch for Crystal, she is a very nice person and a wonderful resource. If she says she is going to help you, she does just that.
cng posted:
. . . When you put the pencil to it, there is no ROI except increasing land values that would probably be better if a horse was never on the land. . .
Hope you put some of that profit into a hefty retirement nest egg. You were smart to change your focus, because I've got a number of friends in the real estate business, construction, and development who are simply dead in the water. I've got a couple really close friends who are surveyors and they have taken part-time jobs unrelated to their vocations. We live in an extremely rural area and the number of unoccupied residences and farms is muliplying from month to month. Current appraisal values for many dropped 30 to 40 percent below previous market values. JMO but I think the day of building value or equity in land is gone forever.
As I said, there is no way I would touch one of the deals I used to do, today. My biggest mistake has been in tying up assets in land rolling over in 1031 tax exchanges, waiting for capital gains laws to be changed. My error was having more confidence in American people than I should. The election of 2008 proved the foolishness of the American voter. There is nothing like a slap in the face from reality to bring people back to their senses. There are billions if not trillions of dollars in shelters that could be working in the economy if capital gains taxes weren't so punitive.
Raw land will not take the hit that homes do. It is when you start building improvements that you are taking big risks. As with anything. it is not the price that you sell that makes you money - it's the price at which you buy.
Most of the price of land per acre has not seen the devaluation that single family and commercial real estate have. There are always people who buy "Green Monkey" land deals too.
Raw land will not take the hit that homes do. It is when you start building improvements that you are taking big risks. As with anything. it is not the price that you sell that makes you money - it's the price at which you buy.
Most of the price of land per acre has not seen the devaluation that single family and commercial real estate have. There are always people who buy "Green Monkey" land deals too.
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Shammy Davis
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I'm assuming that "green monkey land" is undeveloped land. Couldn't find the term in business dictionary.
Without getting into politics, which has it own board, it is problematic for the entire economy when so much money is sitting on the sidelines.
It is very interesting to me, for those familiar w/the Irish and UK, how there base financial markets are so stagnant. It is just an omen for the U. S. markets because our Euro neighbors are deeply in debt and already involved in highly taxed markets.
Without getting into politics, which has it own board, it is problematic for the entire economy when so much money is sitting on the sidelines.
It is very interesting to me, for those familiar w/the Irish and UK, how there base financial markets are so stagnant. It is just an omen for the U. S. markets because our Euro neighbors are deeply in debt and already involved in highly taxed markets.