2004 Report of Mares Bred
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So I went thru the Report of Mares Bred and pulled out what Storm Cat stallions I knew of, and I got a total of 5374 mares being bred to Storm cat and his sons. I didnt include those being bred to Storm Cat grandsons. Had I included them, the numbers would have been a bit bigger with large books by horses such as Johannesburg. Im sure I missed a lot of Storm Cat sons, but I think I got the ones breeding a normal sized book (whatever that is). So we're still running at close to 10% of all mares being bred.
Halo,
Excellent research, and that is an astonishing statistic. Wow.
I'll probably take a look at Storm Cat's sons this weekend, because I'm also interested in whether he really is, in the balance, a good sire of sires.
It could be that the long stretch of his mythical shadow has made it difficult to evaluate Storm Cat or his sons objectively. I suspect that many of us have bought into the myth and then have a vested interest in keeping it going.
I do agree with Colin that this is not to say that he doesn't have some successful sons at stud, etc. But is he so great that we should be breeding 10% of our mares to him and his sons?
Excellent research, and that is an astonishing statistic. Wow.
I'll probably take a look at Storm Cat's sons this weekend, because I'm also interested in whether he really is, in the balance, a good sire of sires.
It could be that the long stretch of his mythical shadow has made it difficult to evaluate Storm Cat or his sons objectively. I suspect that many of us have bought into the myth and then have a vested interest in keeping it going.
I do agree with Colin that this is not to say that he doesn't have some successful sons at stud, etc. But is he so great that we should be breeding 10% of our mares to him and his sons?
Im more concerned with percentages of winners and stakes winners to foals and starters, more than just numbers of winners. The fact that Giants Causeway has 2 graded stakes winners, to me, pales in comparison in the fact that he also has 56 starters so far this year and only 15 winners. Comparing that with Fu Peg's 23 starters with 11 winners and 4 stakes winners, included one graded, and Successful Appeal only with 19 starters, 11 winners and 4 stakes winners including a grade 1 winner. Several other freshmen sires also have better statistics. That is the whole reasoning behind breeding these huge books of mares, they are bound to get one or two good graded stakes winners. The days of top stallions getting 10% stakes winners to foals are over, Im afraid.
To me, a stallion having 56 starters already, by mid October of his freshman year, is mind boggling. And you know they are extremely well bred.
To me, a stallion having 56 starters already, by mid October of his freshman year, is mind boggling. And you know they are extremely well bred.
Halo,
I completely agree that Successful Appeal's and Fu Peg's statistics are much more impressive than Giant's Causeway's, thus far. Perhaps GC is performing better on the turf in the UK, as Colinsb suggested... but I totally agree with you that the stats over here are quite underwhelming and volume-driven.
Before I get any deeper into this, I want to do a little more research. It's a touchy subject because so many people HAVE bred to him or his sons.
I completely agree that Successful Appeal's and Fu Peg's statistics are much more impressive than Giant's Causeway's, thus far. Perhaps GC is performing better on the turf in the UK, as Colinsb suggested... but I totally agree with you that the stats over here are quite underwhelming and volume-driven.
Before I get any deeper into this, I want to do a little more research. It's a touchy subject because so many people HAVE bred to him or his sons.
yeah I see that.
Now maybe the owner can pay back all the people he owes. Yeah right not in this life time.
If only he had character he would. Hey Michael will you pay back all those you screwed? How about in front of all these witnesses you promise with all the money you get from this stallion to pay back everyone you owe.
Your advice means nothing if you don't have character I bet your voting for the guy who is just like you, the one with no character.
Now maybe the owner can pay back all the people he owes. Yeah right not in this life time.
If only he had character he would. Hey Michael will you pay back all those you screwed? How about in front of all these witnesses you promise with all the money you get from this stallion to pay back everyone you owe.
Your advice means nothing if you don't have character I bet your voting for the guy who is just like you, the one with no character.
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chiggins6
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EDITING OUR POSTS
Hurley and others who may not know - after we post, (which is when we REALLY read and notice our typos!) we CAN go back and edit our mistakes! You will notice on every post of your own that there is an edit button, along the blue top edge of the post its self, over to the right. Click it, edit, and repost. Of course, you won't find this available to anyone else's posts, just on your own post, as long as you are logged in. So even now, you could go back to that list of Sires and edit your "4" on Siberian Summer to a "48".
Happy Editing
Happy Editing
[/i]halo wrote:The days of top stallions getting 10% stakes winners to foals are over, Im afraid.
Currently, second crop stallion Forestry looks like he might be on course to match those statistics. It is, of course, early in his career but his first crop, which is now three, has 11% stakes winners from foals and 20% stakes horses from foals.
Unless I've missed something, Successful Appeal doesn't have a G1 winner (that's Yes It's True, with Proud Accolade), but he does have a multiple G3 winner (Lunarpal) and just missed by a half length having a G2 winner in the Grey Stakes in Canada (Accountforthegold). He has two other stakes-placed colts as well, Still Guilty and Hostile Witness, so that's seven stakes horses from 19 starters.
Outcross sires are getting increasingly difficult to find for all these ND/Mr. P line sires. However, this type of saturation has happened before -- look at the case of St. Simon & sons in England at the turn of the 20th century compard to where that sire line is now. The scene may be getting pretty ripe for another line to rise up and take the spotlight.
Outcross sires are getting increasingly difficult to find for all these ND/Mr. P line sires. However, this type of saturation has happened before -- look at the case of St. Simon & sons in England at the turn of the 20th century compard to where that sire line is now. The scene may be getting pretty ripe for another line to rise up and take the spotlight.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
Henthorn & hurleynyc - Thanks for the comments AND especially for the corrections....I've learned something here, or at least I think I have <grin>, we'll see if I remember to do this. Next time I want to type up an analysis of multiple horses like this I'm going to do it offline where I can easily print it out, enlarge the type (THAT would certainly help!) and otherwise aid my editing reveiw before I copy/paste into a post. The Magic Cat vs. Major Cat correction made me realize I can no longer read my own handwriting even when it's only minutes old....send for the rest home brochures, double "sheesh"!
Sorry to learn that Exciting Story is deceased - I've often wondered why it seems the 'good' ones lead such fateful and often fragile lives while a stallion that barely gets 3 mares a year, two of those homies, continues breeding for decades! My dear, departed Dad, an avid and accomplished golfer, used to say: "My dear, it's called the rub of the green." My highschool English teacher called it "irony". Again it's a shame that he's out of the picture so soon. Lane's End brings in some decent 'new stallions" for this market and supports them pretty well in terms of quality.
One more qualifying caveat I'll make - I haven't seen many of these stallions in person myself - my comments aabout soundness and durability of their runners, or the looks of their offspring is based on statistics, what trainers have said to me about a particular stallion's offspring and those offspring I have seen at the track. I would also add that I have certainly learned through my own errors in this regard that even having seen a stallion early in his career it behooves one to visit him again before breeding a mare. Memory can be a tricky thing.....(wouldn't you think that I, of all people, would know that by now!)....and in the cold clear light of a few years later a physical match may not seem so compelling as that stirring earlier memory did.
Sorry to learn that Exciting Story is deceased - I've often wondered why it seems the 'good' ones lead such fateful and often fragile lives while a stallion that barely gets 3 mares a year, two of those homies, continues breeding for decades! My dear, departed Dad, an avid and accomplished golfer, used to say: "My dear, it's called the rub of the green." My highschool English teacher called it "irony". Again it's a shame that he's out of the picture so soon. Lane's End brings in some decent 'new stallions" for this market and supports them pretty well in terms of quality.
One more qualifying caveat I'll make - I haven't seen many of these stallions in person myself - my comments aabout soundness and durability of their runners, or the looks of their offspring is based on statistics, what trainers have said to me about a particular stallion's offspring and those offspring I have seen at the track. I would also add that I have certainly learned through my own errors in this regard that even having seen a stallion early in his career it behooves one to visit him again before breeding a mare. Memory can be a tricky thing.....(wouldn't you think that I, of all people, would know that by now!)....and in the cold clear light of a few years later a physical match may not seem so compelling as that stirring earlier memory did.