Training Question--'Breds vs. Humans

[KentuckyHillbilly5321]

I am new (didn't take a genius to figure that one out!)

I have some questions--first, so I can understand the training of an "average" 3 year old. 2nd--so I can see if there are any gains/comparisons between TB's and human runners.

I am a track (distance) and cross country coach on the high school level. Training for distance runners continues to be more complexed as time goes by.

Could someone give me a general understand of the types of workouts that TB's do (it doesn't have to be in great detail--I am sure that I will have a few more questions to ensure that I understand) from the time that someone decides that they are going to race--to the pinnacle of their racing careers? (I would REALLY appreciate it).

High school boys/girl distance runners usually follow a pretty standard plan (that is constantly tweaked)--like this:
*Long Slow distance (to build a base of endurance)
*Threshold workouts (on the edge of lactate threshold--so the body learns to deal with high levels of lactic acid)
*Tempo run (set pace--for and extended duration
*Recovery workouts (slow, easy running to flush the body of lactic acid)
*Interval/rep workouts (a set distance with a set amount of time between each rep)

Naturally--there is a lot of planning involved to ensure the proper workout at the right time. I just wonder--is there anything that can be gained by studying EITHER side?

Any help here would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[FancyHorse]

Well, there are many factors to take in. You first have to see what you have to work with. If you have a horse with soundness issues that is going to determine how many times the horse goes to the track, what speed, and how many workouts the horse will do. Also you have to consider the distance the horse is going to run, is it going to be sprinting 4 1/2 FL or long distance at 1 mile 1/16. That will determine if you need speed vs stamina. Also, every trainer has their own way to train their horse, some like to take their horse to the track everyday, around the track twice or so (depends on how large the track is) and maybe work the horse once a week or once every two weeks if the horse isn't running. Others like to take the horse everyother day and etc...... With racehorses each plan is usually different for every horse because of soundness issues and some like to run fresh and such. Of course, if the horse has never ran before or if it is coming off a lay up, it will need a few months to get in shape, by galloping and workouts to get fit. Hope that helps at all and anyone else please put in your two cents!

[KentuckyHillbilly5321]

Well, there are many factors to take in. You first have to see what you have to work with. If you have a horse with soundness issues that is going to determine how many times the horse goes to the track, what speed, and how many workouts the horse will do. Also you have to consider the distance the horse is going to run, is it going to be sprinting 4 1/2 FL or long distance at 1 mile 1/16. That will determine if you need speed vs stamina. Also, every trainer has their own way to train their horse, some like to take their horse to the track everyday, around the track twice or so (depends on how large the track is) and maybe work the horse once a week or once every two weeks if the horse isn't running. Others like to take the horse everyother day and etc...... With racehorses each plan is usually different for every horse because of soundness issues and some like to run fresh and such. Of course, if the horse has never ran before or if it is coming off a lay up, it will need a few months to get in shape, by galloping and workouts to get fit. Hope that helps at all and anyone else please put in your two cents!

First--thanks for the response. I was hoping that I would get something!

Right away--I should have been more specific. I am mainly interested in training that involves "longer" distances. So--a mile and up.

Also--when you say "soundness" would this mean injury? running alignment? (Sorry again--I am a rookie when it comes to horses).

Right away--it is pretty cool that trainers are "individualizing" workouts (which is more terminology from my world). Naturally--I understand that a trainer has knowledge that helps him/her to understand what types of races a horse should run (sprints or longer) and then the workouts necessary to achieve their goals.

The one thing that I that maybe someone could clear up--for out distance kids--we are usually running 6 days a week--and work hard to build a "BASE" of mileage with long, slow distance/mileage.

Do horses run for miles at a time? (For instance--our average runner will run 6-8 miles a day at a pretty easy pace for the first 2-3 months before the season starts)

Also--would it put a horse at risk to do something like this? (I guess--I am asking--is a horse going to hurt their self running a nice, easy slow pace for 5 days in a row?)

Sorry to be so long winded--but I promise that I am interested! And I want to learn as much as possible. I know that horses and people are different--but I think that each of the disciplines could learn something from the other (and I am sure that they probably have already).

[Wildcat]

First--thanks for the response. I was hoping that I would get something!

Right away--I should have been more specific. I am mainly interested in training that involves "longer" distances. So--a mile and up.

Also--when you say "soundness" would this mean injury? running alignment? (Sorry again--I am a rookie when it comes to horses).

Right away--it is pretty cool that trainers are "individualizing" workouts (which is more terminology from my world). Naturally--I understand that a trainer has knowledge that helps him/her to understand what types of races a horse should run (sprints or longer) and then the workouts necessary to achieve their goals.

The one thing that I that maybe someone could clear up--for out distance kids--we are usually running 6 days a week--and work hard to build a "BASE" of mileage with long, slow distance/mileage.

Do horses run for miles at a time? (For instance--our average runner will run 6-8 miles a day at a pretty easy pace for the first 2-3 months before the season starts)

Also--would it put a horse at risk to do something like this? (I guess--I am asking--is a horse going to hurt their self running a nice, easy slow pace for 5 days in a row?)

Sorry to be so long winded--but I promise that I am interested! And I want to learn as much as possible. I know that horses and people are different--but I think that each of the disciplines could learn something from the other (and I am sure that they probably have already).

I am not an expert when it comes to racing, but I can try an answer a few questions. (If I am wrong in any of this please let me know)
As far as soundness goes when concerning horses it typically means if the horse is prone to injuries. Like humans, some horses are built funny, which could put more pressure on tendons, joints, bones, etc, which would cause the horse to not be able to endure as much as a horse that has correct conformation. Also, some horses for whatever reason, can't endure the physical stress from a hard training program, and will "break down" more easily then others.

Also, farriers can have a large impact on a horses overall soundness IMO. Farriers are able to control, to some degree, a horse’s hoof. Therefore, if they have it at a funny angle, it will put pressure on something up above. Farriers can also try to help a horse that might be lacking in the conformation department. Besides how they trim the feet, they can use different types of shoes, or "set" the shoes on their feet in different ways.

If you google Barbaro and Michael Matz (his trainer,) you will find ways that Michael conditioned the horse. For instance Barbaro did a lot of trotting work (2 miles), as well as going up and down hills. Michael came from the realm of show jumping (which is what I am most familiar with,) and was an Olympian. His first Olympics were in 1976, Montreal, but he had jumped his horse so much prior to the Olympic trials, but by the time he got to the Olympics his horse was tired. This caused the horse to pull rails, and just not be at his "game." That is why Michael has the training program he does with the racehorses, but every trainer has their own method. His, from what I gather, is very different then most racehorse trainers.

I admire you for seeking more information like this. I am not sure if this is relevant at all, but at my school (D1,) the track team now does a combination of yoga and pilates. They have not had a single muscle related injury since they started that program.

Hope I was of some help,
Jess

[KentuckyHillbilly5321]

First--thanks for the response. I was hoping that I would get something!

Right away--I should have been more specific. I am mainly interested in training that involves "longer" distances. So--a mile and up.

Also--when you say "soundness" would this mean injury? running alignment? (Sorry again--I am a rookie when it comes to horses).

Right away--it is pretty cool that trainers are "individualizing" workouts (which is more terminology from my world). Naturally--I understand that a trainer has knowledge that helps him/her to understand what types of races a horse should run (sprints or longer) and then the workouts necessary to achieve their goals.

The one thing that I that maybe someone could clear up--for out distance kids--we are usually running 6 days a week--and work hard to build a "BASE" of mileage with long, slow distance/mileage.

Do horses run for miles at a time? (For instance--our average runner will run 6-8 miles a day at a pretty easy pace for the first 2-3 months before the season starts)

Also--would it put a horse at risk to do something like this? (I guess--I am asking--is a horse going to hurt their self running a nice, easy slow pace for 5 days in a row?)

Sorry to be so long winded--but I promise that I am interested! And I want to learn as much as possible. I know that horses and people are different--but I think that each of the disciplines could learn something from the other (and I am sure that they probably have already).

I am not an expert when it comes to racing, but I can try an answer a few questions. (If I am wrong in any of this please let me know)
As far as soundness goes when concerning horses it typically means if the horse is prone to injuries. Like humans, some horses are built funny, which could put more pressure on tendons, joints, bones, etc, which would cause the horse to not be able to endure as much as a horse that has correct conformation. Also, some horses for whatever reason, can't endure the physical stress from a hard training program, and will "break down" more easily then others.

Also, farriers can have a large impact on a horses overall soundness IMO. Farriers are able to control, to some degree, a horse’s hoof. Therefore, if they have it at a funny angle, it will put pressure on something up above. Farriers can also try to help a horse that might be lacking in the conformation department. Besides how they trim the feet, they can use different types of shoes, or "set" the shoes on their feet in different ways.

If you google Barbaro and Michael Matz (his trainer,) you will find ways that Michael conditioned the horse. For instance Barbaro did a lot of trotting work (2 miles), as well as going up and down hills. Michael came from the realm of show jumping (which is what I am most familiar with,) and was an Olympian. His first Olympics were in 1976, Montreal, but he had jumped his horse so much prior to the Olympic trials, but by the time he got to the Olympics his horse was tired. This caused the horse to pull rails, and just not be at his "game." That is why Michael has the training program he does with the racehorses, but every trainer has their own method. His, from what I gather, is very different then most racehorse trainers.

I admire you for seeking more information like this. I am not sure if this is relevant at all, but at my school (D1,) the track team now does a combination of yoga and pilates. They have not had a single muscle related injury since they started that program.

Hope I was of some help,
Jess

Jess--this was a HUGE help. I appreciate it!

Yoga and pilates . . . . this is something that we do as well. We mainly use both to stregthen the core muscles (abs/back/lower back, etc). We also gain great strength from the stabilization muscles (which control balance, stride length, frequency, etc).

Thanks for the explanation of soundness. Recently, I have developed a large interest in horses (I really liked them when I was younger as well). I am also really interested in places like Old Friends Equine (which is about an hour south from me).

Many of our kids have become interested due to a certain "situation" that has happened in front of the public eye in the past few months (I don't want to hex myself there).

They are also pretty interested in the differences between their running--and the training of a horse.

Michael Matz is where I started (great minds think alike!)--and some of his training philosophies. That was where I really started to think about some of the questions that I am asking.

For instance--the hill work, the work off the track at Fair Hill--all sounded pretty similar to a lot of the things that we do for cross country.

Also--I get the feeling from your Olympic comparison that horses are probably put through a "taper" that is similar to what we use for our kids (meaning--and hopefully I am not insulting anyones intelligence)--an extended period of training--follow up by the shortening of intensity and duration of training immediately before a race/important race).

I also appreciate the information about farriors. We have something similar -- specialty running shoe stores! Running shoes have advanced tremendously--there are all different types (motion control, cushioned, stability)--and probably worked in similar ways to how horses feet are trimmed/shoed.

The one thing I also think is pretty cool--I was ready up on laminitis--and found that there is a "barefoot" movement.

There is also something very similar going on in running right now (referred to as the minimalist movement). This comes from the fact that some studies have shown that shoes are too built up--and they actually decrease the flexiblity and the strength of the tendons/muscles in your lower legs.

So basically--Turfway Park is about 2 minutes away from my house--and is right next to where I work my day job. I always wonder what kind of workouts they are doing.

A little more help if you guys don't mind:
What is "breezing" (and a typical distance)?
Is "galloping" = easy running?

Again--thanks a million to everyone who has taken time to answer my questions. I really appreciate it.

[FancyHorse]

Also--when you say "soundness" would this mean injury? running alignment? (Sorry again--I am a rookie when it comes to horses).

When I refer to "soundness", I mean horses that do have current problems, injuries, or past injuries. Many horses run with chips, tendons, sore feet, sore hocks, etc. So how many days a week they gallop and at what speed and also how often they run will be determined by the soundness issue of the horse and what they can endure.

The one thing that I that maybe someone could clear up--for out distance kids--we are usually running 6 days a week--and work hard to build a "BASE" of mileage with long, slow distance/mileage.

Usually the horse will go to the track 6 to 7 days a week, depending on the trainer, if the horse is entered to run, or if the horse just had a work out or just ran. If you are talking about miles runners usually the horse will gallop alittie bit long then a sprinter. Example, on a 5/8 (5FL) track, if we have a horse to run a mile+, we usually take him around the 5/8 track 3 times!

Do horses run for miles at a time? (For instance--our average runner will run 6-8 miles a day at a pretty easy pace for the first 2-3 months before the season starts)

There is 8FL in a mile, so if you are training a sound mile running horse, they would basicly be galloping almost 2 miles, be about 1 FL short. BUT, some trainers are different, some only like to take their mile running horses just over a mile galloping in the mornings.

Also--would it put a horse at risk to do something like this? (I guess--I am asking--is a horse going to hurt their self running a nice, easy slow pace for 5 days in a row?)

There is ALWAYS a risk, a horse can take a bad step and break something, but if the horse is basicly sound, usually an injury wont occur while just galloping, now while running in a race, thats a different story, there is always a risk involved, in fact thats how injuries occur!

[louis finochio]

To hill Billy: I am a track fan and a fancier of TB. I started to work around the backstretch when I was 18, and I am still there.

One must crawl before you walk, go to the backstretch and walk a few TB, and if you get bit like I did, you will ask many questions and keep your ears and eyes open.

You will soon learn the training patterns that each trainer emloys.

Its ok to read books about training , but you cant beat learning the game from those leading trainers.

When I was in school in the mid 50s their was no girls track program.
I am happy to see that there is a girls program now.
Our school girls our really turning in some world class times. I am looking forward to the China olympics to see how are girls score against the world.

[KentuckyHillbilly5321]

Fancy/Louis/Wildcat--thanks a lot. I really appreciate your input--and willingness to share information.

I have been debating for a long time about whether or not I would ask (a little nervous about comparing one thing that I understand with something I have no real understanding about).

As I said before--I live about 2 minutes away from Turfway--and they are running in the mornings now (even when their isn't a meet). Am I going to cause anyone any trouble if I show up to watch early in the morning? (The last thing I want to do is get in the way of people who are working). I would love to spend some time watching--and just trying to get a feel for it without bothering anyone. I just know that I would want to ask a bunch of questions . . . . . . .

The one impression that really sticks out so far is that trainers/horsemen really need to be in tune with their horses (I know there are signs or ways that horses let people know how they feel--but it is very clear that a person needs to spend a great deal of time working with horses to acquire that knowledge).

Thanks again to all of you. I will probably end up with some more questions--I will try not to be too much of a pain.

Louis--you are right about the girls in track! I was lucky enough to coach a state champion who earned a scholarship to Louisville. The boys always took it hard when she dropped the hammer on them!

[Gallop58]

All good answers above, and I will add that you will be extremely disappointed at the amount of work horses do compared to humans. It will not make sense to you, and I'm not sure it's supposed to. There are different training methods all around the world. If you are interested, PM me and I will send you a book/reference list that you can buy to see the cross section of training approaches. As said, training knowledge doesn't come from books, this applies to humans and horses as well, but it will give you some perspective. Training methods vary greatly, and have varied greatly over time.
The typical racing TB does alot less work in general than the human distance runner. In rough equivalence though I would say the 400m-800m-1500m is closer to the style of training that horses do.

As an example a typical North American workout in preparation for a 6F race is trot 1/2 mile, roll into a flying 4F at max, gallop out go to a walk and return to the barn. The more valuable the horse the more care in training unfortunately, so high class horses would get a better warm up, cool down etc, but the meat of the workout is about the same +- a furlong. Better horses usually get better off day mileage and care, though it is mostly trainer dependent.
Not much volume at all in the TB world, and when you come at training methods from a human angle you will sit and scratch your head for a long time as to why this can be effective, but if you came at it from inside the backstretch community, it is self evident that it works and that it or similar workouts are sufficient. Neither is more right or wrong. As in human athletics, winning is what counts. How you do it is the adventure that many people enjoy.
(The off day mileage, is "wimpy" compared to humans, and there is no periodization per se) Almost all horses are trained on a short to long approach, starting with 1/8 - 1/4 mile workouts and gradually getting longer but you will see almost no workouts longer than 6-7 furlongs, even for mile or mile + races.

As for injuries and being in tune with horses, there is a giant cross section of approaches. Some trainers call the vet at every hiccup and rarely put their hands on a horse, while others do everything themselves, are very in tune with their horses, doing the grooming, and exercise riding themselves.
Since all horses have a caretaker at the track (groom) there is someone who has their hands on and who's roll is to care for and speak for the athlete that can not. As in everything, groom's capabilities run the spectrum, and it is probably true that a good groom is worth their weight in gold. They and assitant trainers are usually where the horsemanship is taking place. (Or lack thereof)

In human athletics (say NCAA level track or football) when systemic injury statistics pile up, the trainer is the first guy you look at, then the surface or facilities. My personal opinion is that almost every injury is the trainers fault. (OK that was a bit harsh, maybe Trainers should hold themselves accountable for all injuries, conveys the idea better) Career ending injuries and horses that can not make it to the races are so common place that it is the norm to have setbacks in training and an attrition rate is expected. Some have the mentality that if they can't handle the training, they won't be much of a racehorse. It's brutal, likely shortsighted, a meat grinder approach, etc. but it is probably the reality for most people.

Anyway, good luck on your adventure. I'm sure you will find it fascinating as well as frustrating.

Just my opinions, and all questions are good questions (well almost all

KH

[KentuckyHillbilly5321]

All good answers above, and I will add that you will be extremely disappointed at the amount of work horses do compared to humans. It will not make sense to you, and I'm not sure it's supposed to. There are different training methods all around the world. If you are interested, PM me and I will send you a book/reference list that you can buy to see the cross section of training approaches. As said, training knowledge doesn't come from books, this applies to humans and horses as well, but it will give you some perspective. Training methods vary greatly, and have varied greatly over time.
The typical racing TB does alot less work in general than the human distance runner. In rough equivalence though I would say the 400m-800m-1500m is closer to the style of training that horses do.

As an example a typical North American workout in preparation for a 6F race is trot 1/2 mile, roll into a flying 4F at max, gallop out go to a walk and return to the barn. The more valuable the horse the more care in training unfortunately, so high class horses would get a better warm up, cool down etc, but the meat of the workout is about the same +- a furlong. Better horses usually get better off day mileage and care, though it is mostly trainer dependent.
Not much volume at all in the TB world, and when you come at training methods from a human angle you will sit and scratch your head for a long time as to why this can be effective, but if you came at it from inside the backstretch community, it is self evident that it works and that it or similar workouts are sufficient. Neither is more right or wrong. As in human athletics, winning is what counts. How you do it is the adventure that many people enjoy.
(The off day mileage, is "wimpy" compared to humans, and there is no periodization per se) Almost all horses are trained on a short to long approach, starting with 1/8 - 1/4 mile workouts and gradually getting longer but you will see almost no workouts longer than 6-7 furlongs, even for mile or mile + races.

As for injuries and being in tune with horses, there is a giant cross section of approaches. Some trainers call the vet at every hiccup and rarely put their hands on a horse, while others do everything themselves, are very in tune with their horses, doing the grooming, and exercise riding themselves.
Since all horses have a caretaker at the track (groom) there is someone who has their hands on and who's roll is to care for and speak for the athlete that can not. As in everything, groom's capabilities run the spectrum, and it is probably true that a good groom is worth their weight in gold. They and assitant trainers are usually where the horsemanship is taking place. (Or lack thereof)

In human athletics (say NCAA level track or football) when systemic injury statistics pile up, the trainer is the first guy you look at, then the surface or facilities. My personal opinion is that almost every injury is the trainers fault. (OK that was a bit harsh, maybe Trainers should hold themselves accountable for all injuries, conveys the idea better) Career ending injuries and horses that can not make it to the races are so common place that it is the norm to have setbacks in training and an attrition rate is expected. Some have the mentality that if they can't handle the training, they won't be much of a racehorse. It's brutal, likely shortsighted, a meat grinder approach, etc. but it is probably the reality for most people.

Anyway, good luck on your adventure. I'm sure you will find it fascinating as well as frustrating.

Just my opinions, and all questions are good questions (well almost all

KH

Gallop--thanks a bunch!

It would appear that you have some solid knowledge of both sides (human vs. horse). The words "periodization", "volume" gave you away!

The one thing that I have going for me here--is that I am feel like I am pretty open minded about the training of our runners. And with your post--I again came to some new conclusions:

1. Even if there are different race distances for a horse--basically--the physical characteristics/genetic make up of horses point to the fact that pretty much every race from 1 1/4 and DOWN (and maybe even higher) could be considered a "middle" distance race at best (like 800/1500/1600 Meters on the track) or a sprint race (100/200/400). I don't know horses well enough to understand their effort during a race--but hopefully--that will change.

2. In my world--these types of workouts speak more to "quality" as opposed to volume (pretty easy to understand that one). Human runners will do similar workouts but at this point--I am unsure if they are for similiar reasons . . . right away--this is something that I need to stress more in my distance program--but for us--it will be something that is done between 3-5 days before a race to "sharpen" up before the race.

3. I also get the feeling that trainers take the age (or running age) of a horse into consideration with their training. And that is something that we have tried to do with our kids (especially the ones that we get young--like 7th/8th graders). We slowly build the workouts and don't go higher until they can physically handle it.

I read in the racing forum how things like interval workouts don't work for horses (TB's in particular). I could understand part of that--but it wasn't a great example--(it seemed like they were doing those workouts WAY too much--we may do them once every 10 to 14 days--for the horse--it was more).

Are there any pieces of "human" training that have been successful on a LARGE level?

Also--reading between the lines--I get the impression that trainers have their workouts in their head--and they go to these workouts based on their opinion of where the horse is at time/place. Would that be true? Or--do some trainers have a written out plan for certain types of horses?

Thanks again for everything! I appreciate how much time everyone has been willing to spend on a new guy's questions!

[Gallop58]

Re: Are there any pieces of "human" training that have been successful on a LARGE level?

Yes. Performance Enhancing Drug use.
If you are an expert at that you will succeed quite well in horses

There are aspects of human training that have been adapted with claimed success, but not at a large level. A guy in France has built a high altitude training center for Train High- Race Low training. Some believe interval training can provide good results. These are absolutely the exception though. You will find that most people in the industry will raise a Spockian eyebrow at almost anything or anyone who appears to step away from the pack.
Alot of the sportsmedicine for injury is quite similar, but the modalities for normal everyday recovery and regeneration in humans is almost never used in horses. Except maybe cold and heat therapy.

As horses have different physiology, not everything seems to be transferrable, but most training is simplistic compared to human training.

Turfway's track being Polytrack is one of the better for reducing shock and injuries. I have yet to hear that any trainer is using this to increase the amount of work they do. Rather the general idea seems to be that business as usual training will have a lower attrition rate on this new surface both while racing and training.

Good luck. Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll pick up a lot.

When you're at the track pick a horse and watch it from first step on the track to the first step off. A few days of watching and I think you will see 90% of what goes on in training at your local neighbourhood racetrack. If you note the saddle cloth colors you will see trends within and between trainers approaches.

[Dave C]

Kentucky:

(warning: I'm a little bit sour with one of our trainers right now and that may affect the tone of my post)

You've raised an interesting topic. In my experience with racehorses and high performance human athletes, you have nothing to learn from 99% of TB trainers and the 1% who could teach you something useful won't tell you incase people around the backstretch find out. They're not afraid of being copied they just don't want to be labelled a butcher the first time one of their horses break down. Most trainers on the other hand could learn from you.

The lack of success in adapting human training techniques to horses is almost always because the horseman does not take the time to understand the process by which the technique works and therefore doesn't adapt it properly or gives up before the benefits are apparent. They are after all professionals in the 'Sport of Kings' so what more could they possibly need to learn out of a textbook.

You've gotten some very good advice from other posters here. I certainly encourage you to ask questions of the trainers you meet and you might find that you can learn far more from them than my cynical attitude suggests.

[monicabee]

If you are interested in longer distances, you might find it more relevant to look at training for endurance racing, which has little in common with the race track. A romanticized version was portrayed in the movie "Hidalgo," but modern endurance riders use heart monitors and the horses must pass frequent vet checks for condition and soundness. They generally race over distances of 25-100 miles (in 24 hours). Some horses go barefoot, with boots for going over the rougher terrain.

Endurance racing is dominated by Arabian horses, but mustangs, Akhal Tekes and Thoroughbreds compete successfully, along with other light breeds. It is all about the conditioning! The American Endurance Ride web site has some information.

http://www.aerc.org/Education_Material.asp