WHY CANT A BLUE HEN REPRODUCE A BLUE HEN?

[Shammy Davis]

Hi all: This is really interesting. I've got to tell you that I get lost w/all this X and Y stuff, but I do know how to read breeding reports and they often tell of broodmares who never found the right sire. I'm sure there are many quality broodmares who just did not have the opportunity to produce competitive offspring and therefore fell through the cracks, so to speak. I just see so many mares shipped from one sire to the next, year after year, without any idea of what the foal's potential might be. My uneducated guess is that a good breeding strategy is the determining factor for the evolution of Blue Hens in a particular line. Having just left the "Somethingroyal connection," it is apparent that the odds are in favor of Smarty's dam producing a another quality runner. Maybe not a $5 million dollar one. Elusive Quality looks to me like a sire who works well with a number of lines so if I were looking to produce a Blue Hen (in my dreams,) I'd certainly want to send a quality broodmare to him on numerous occasions. Most recently, I've found that one of my young winning broodmares is a half sister to juvenile stakes winning colt Elusive Chris by Elusive Quality out of Karas Heart. Karas Heart has shown some success with other sires. It will be interesting to see if her owner has sent her back to EQ for another drink at the well. You can be sure I will follow her progress closely, though for me, EQ is too high $. Beyond that, give me a little time and I'll work my way into the X and Y stuff. Best regards to all. Shammy

[louis finochio]

How 1948 by Princequillo--The Squaw II by Sickle produced only 1 SW in Pocahontas. How dosent qualify of being a Blue Hen. A blue hen is a mare that produces many 3 or more Graded SW.

[Linda in TX]

How 1948 by Princequillo--The Squaw II by Sickle produced only 1 SW in Pocahontas. How dosent qualify of being a Blue Hen. A blue hen is a mare that produces many 3 or more Graded SW.

When a mare produces only two foals it's not mathematically possible for her to be dam of 3 SWs. Did How have more than two? Besides, even if she had ten foals, How still deserves extra credit as the dam of a Broodmare of the Year (Pocahontas).

The Sqauw, her daughter How and How's daughter Pocahontas are designated Reines-de-Course by Ellen Parker. That's good enough for me to include them in my personal list of "Blue-Hens."

[yukidragon]

I thank you for Starting this post.
Ive been reading pedigrees for 3 years trying to see what the Great breeder's saw/seen.
For some reason reading this post it came to me what Ive been hunting for years.Like the smoke cleared
But I ain't telling. LOL

[Sylvie Hebert]

one thing i have notice is some mares reproduce copy of stud you use any stud.i have a mare like that,bred to 6 different studs produced carbon copies of the daddy every time...color,conformation,movement...so make sure you choose good daddy...

[Shammy Davis]

Hi all: I'm just throwing this out to see what gets tangled in my line. We have a kennel of Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. There use to be a time when I could hunt. A couple of my original bitches were out of very old established kennels on the Eastern Shore and I was once told that if you really were interested in having a picture of what your pups will look and act like, look at the grandparents, particularly on the bitches side. To be honest, it never worked for me, but I do have a stallion that is the spitting image of his paternal grandsire right down to his socks and hooves. I've often wondered if this K9 theory translated to the equine world. Best regards, Shammy

[Mahubah]

Some horses (stallions and mares both) are dominant in that they tend to stamp their offspring strongly; others are "transparent" and tend to throw to their mates' most dominant characteristics. Michael may have to correct me on this, but I understand that Pirate's Bounty in California stamped his progeny very consistently, and Bull Lea also tended to throw a pretty consistent type, just to give a couple of examples. You could usually pick out the Northern Dancers pretty well too, though Nijinsky II took more after his dam. On the other hand, the great sire Hyperion threw offspring of every size and color, but the one thing he did pass on pretty consistently was talent.

[louis finochio]

I have seen the Northern Dancer look conformation wise that I can spot a mile away. The Nijinsky look like ballerina dancer's long in body and long legs. Raise a Native threw stout blocky TB with thick necks and barrel chest and hind quarters. The Northern Dancer's are built low to the ground and powerful and short coupled. When you look at the grand sires and grand dams in the photos on this site you will see a resemblance of todays TB, but not all of their offspring will follow this pattern.

[louis finochio]

Federico Tesio once said, and I quote, Just as a BMS can exert great influence on the breeding capabilities of his daughters, one can assume, as did Tesio that a mare can spread her genetic influence through her sons. As Federico Tesio found this to be a fact, it was one of his breeding principals used to produce the big horse.

[dray33]

As i read more and more about pedigree, there are certain quotes I look back on and hold true, these are the ones that guide and will continue to guide my direction when it comes to breeding TB's for racing. There are 2 books that I have found to be the greatest help (I also enjoyed the X Factor):

1) The Estes Formula for Breeding Stakes Winners by: Joseph A. Estes
2) Breeding the Racehorse by: Frederico Tesio

Distilled into what I can understand:

From book 1) Page 4:
"If you have a good sire he's 50 percent of your stud; if you have a bad sire, he's 100 per cent of your stud."

From book 1) Page 6:
"It's percentage again. I guarantee you that Man o'War can sire horses as bad as Cork Elm if only the chromosomes get together in the worst possible arrangement."

Book 1 claims, and I agree, that the female side of the equation is the easiest one the grab hold of and use to our advantage when breeding. It even goes as far as to tell you how MANY mares of high quality (also described in the book) you would need to produce a GSW. In other words, the best indication of a potential stakes-winner is: How good was the Dam? How good was the Dams, Dam?

To back this up, i went to another book, Thoroughbred Champions: Top 100 Racehorses of the 20th Century. I looked at all the top fillys that raced, and looked to see mention of offspring. It bears note that of the ones that made that list, many, many of them were EXCELLENT mares, throwing off champions like, well like champions.

In my short study of pedigree, I have moved away from "nicking" per se, and have researched closely the female line. It seems to me that you should start with a worthy broodmare prospect, then simply breed her to the most compatable Sire in terms of conformation to the mare. Sires are a simple commodity, purchase the talents of ANY sire at a price... but you cant put a dollar sign on a good mare (well, i guess you can actually, look at the last keeneland breeding stock sale!).

Tesios book is a gem, and also extolls the virtue of the mare. Anyway, from a beginner, thats how I am starting to see things.

Luck to all!

Dray

[Bill from WA]

Hi Dray

AMEN.

Bill

[dray33]

Hey Bill from WA. Thanks for the support. Being fairly new to all this, it's nice to hear that I'm not way off, or may even be close to reality. I dont want to post before i can at least have an educated opinion.

In support of this... I am comforted in the start i took to this game, and feel i was soundly consulted when i got into the game only last year. My trainer (john kimmel) suggested fillys to start, we bought 3, by Broad Brush, Unbridled's Song and Forestry. More importantly, the female side was all stakes winners and producers. I am pinhooking the Forestry, in hopes of one day buying a colt. For now, i am left hoping that my 2 runners produce on the track. If they do, THEY will be the start of my broodmare band.

One thing the books i have read show, is that you can throw pedigree about as far as the DAM... beyond even that, breed at your own peril. Joseph A. Estes thought pedigree was worthless (!), and in his equation i can understand that. Sure, if you start with 8 Graded Stakes winning Dams odds are you'll throw off a champion. But for the others of us not able to drop the 10 million plus to get that type of broodmare band together i think an unraced mare off of a good runner just might be close enough.

Hopefully, my fillys will run, and win. The Broad Brush one would be fun to breed to, his line is getting rare. Sadly, he has been pushed to produce, the guy needs a break, rest, retirement already.

Anyway, best of luck to all...

Dray

[louis finochio]

Behind every quality TB or Champion you will find a Blue Hen or close to it. Dray if you are a novice, you are looking in the right direction for a dominant producer. As this is the way to produce the big horse. The problem is that no breeders will sell the gold mine producer mares, unless it is a complete dispersal. Then your back to square one trying to find a gold mine producer. It is better to purchase one diamond in the rough mare, than 10 medicore mares. If I was a Kennedy or Rockafella I would have a collection of Blue Hens. Good Luck in your search of a quality mare.

[dray33]

Louis, it's a fact. Whenever I research a pedigree, like the Shenanigans line that produced Ruffian, lets say... I see that inevitably, the dam, second dam, etc. are all owned by a prominent family in kentucky. And that goes for the offspring too. All throughout the champion lineage. I call that just plain SMART. For an outsider, the task of weeding your way into that fold is daunting.

So, breaking it down, theres Luck, and there is LUCK
I think the best way is to buy a filly off a great mare that shows "blue hen" potential.

take a look at the buy i made with the mare: STARBOARD TACK. Nuff said. thats my plan

We'll see if i can crack the code

Best to all...

Dray

[ZiaLand]

This reply posted to the wrong thread so I deleted it and moved it to the correct thread. (Monday morning and not enough coffee, I guess.)

Laurie