Pin Oak Lane in PA
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
I think this is a excellent topic, and should be read by everyone boarding a horse for someone or with someone. ruaff- you should think about putting your concerns about the general attitude of the farm into a letter to the owner. Clear the air about your general visits to the farm and what you have observed.
4 swift visits in 2 months is not a "investigation". He/She should not feel as though you are being a back seat driver toward the care of your mare. You were simply checking up to make sure she was happy and comfortable. No harm done.
It is a distraction to the owner and staff when owners show up with XX number of friends to see their horse. Who they all insist on seeing every horse on the farm, going out into fields, or hand feeding. Some owners are asking you 10,000 questions about every horse-related topic while you are trying to keep a eye on what their friends are doing. Because they are obviously NOT. And when they stay for the afternoon.. it maybe holding up a man or two who have chores to do, thus making their day longer.
Crowd control is a major factor in running a farm. We love when owners and their friends/family visit. But just like when going to someone else's house.. try to be respectful. That is just my general rule of thumb =)
4 swift visits in 2 months is not a "investigation". He/She should not feel as though you are being a back seat driver toward the care of your mare. You were simply checking up to make sure she was happy and comfortable. No harm done.
It is a distraction to the owner and staff when owners show up with XX number of friends to see their horse. Who they all insist on seeing every horse on the farm, going out into fields, or hand feeding. Some owners are asking you 10,000 questions about every horse-related topic while you are trying to keep a eye on what their friends are doing. Because they are obviously NOT. And when they stay for the afternoon.. it maybe holding up a man or two who have chores to do, thus making their day longer.
Crowd control is a major factor in running a farm. We love when owners and their friends/family visit. But just like when going to someone else's house.. try to be respectful. That is just my general rule of thumb =)
If I'm reading the original post correctly, you weren't making an unannounced visit because you suspected that your horse was being neglected, but rather because you didn't feel you should have to call ahead to see your own horse? I don't think that request is out of line at all. A call--once requested--is simply common courtesy. Jellac outlined quite well all the reasons why farm owners don't want visitors running around their property unescorted. Even if they've seen you interact with your own mare, they don't really "know" you. Even people who have plenty of experience with riding horses and show barns can be terribly ignorant about herd dynamics. I suspect the rules are in place not to keep you away but for the safety and protection of all the boarders' mares, including yours.
I've boarded my mares and foals at the same farm for five years. During that time, I've probably made several hundred visits to see them. In the beginning, someone was always with me when I went into the pastures. Now I make my visits solo. But I've been asked to always call ahead and I do. They simply want to know who's on the property. One time several years ago when I forgot, a truck came flying up to the pasture shortly after my arrival. Someone had seen me from the barn a quarter mile away and wanted to know who was in with the mares. I love the fact that someone is keeping such a close watch on what happens to my horses--and you better believe I've never forgotten to call again.
Similarly, when I visit my horses at the track or the training center, I always call in advance to let them know I'm coming. That way they can arrange the schedule accordingly and it makes life easier for all of us.
Now, in none of these cases do I have any qualms about the care my horses are receiving. I did plenty of homework ahead of time and put them where I knew they'd be well cared for. If you are worried about your mare, and that's the real reason why you feel that the unannounced visits are justified, why would you board at that farm to begin with?
I've boarded my mares and foals at the same farm for five years. During that time, I've probably made several hundred visits to see them. In the beginning, someone was always with me when I went into the pastures. Now I make my visits solo. But I've been asked to always call ahead and I do. They simply want to know who's on the property. One time several years ago when I forgot, a truck came flying up to the pasture shortly after my arrival. Someone had seen me from the barn a quarter mile away and wanted to know who was in with the mares. I love the fact that someone is keeping such a close watch on what happens to my horses--and you better believe I've never forgotten to call again.
Similarly, when I visit my horses at the track or the training center, I always call in advance to let them know I'm coming. That way they can arrange the schedule accordingly and it makes life easier for all of us.
Now, in none of these cases do I have any qualms about the care my horses are receiving. I did plenty of homework ahead of time and put them where I knew they'd be well cared for. If you are worried about your mare, and that's the real reason why you feel that the unannounced visits are justified, why would you board at that farm to begin with?
Last edited by LB on Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
I guess I'm in the minority in this thread but I've boarded at an equivalent farm in California for years and I've never gone up there unannounced and I never will. I always call at least 24 hours in advance and tell them exactly when we'll arrive and how many are in my party and which horses I want to see (because I sometimes make the trip with another owner and all together we could be as much as 10 horses). That allows them to budget their time for my visit and they know exactly when I'll be there. To me, that's just common courtesy. A big boarding farm has to accompany you on their grounds. Their insurance not to mention their other owners would go berzerk if an owner just walked through the fields by themselves. Way too many accidents can happen on a horse farm.
Crystal's post is right on and here's another thought: the original poster set the scene and said the words but not the demeanor. Under the right circumstances (ie your horse is obviously being well cared for and you respect them), there is a lot to be said for ingratiating yourself a little. No you don't tip if you're a client but I have brought a platter of homemade cookies as a thank you for their time after a particularly long visit. You'd be amazed at how little gestures can grease the wheels and make them look forward to seeing you again. I've also never interrogated anyone. Occasionally I've gone up and see a booboo on a horse that I didn't know about and I'll ask what they are doing and what it means but I've never flown off the handle.
Ultimately and ideally you should be at a boarding farm because you feel they are doing the best job for your horse. But courtesy is a two way street and frankly I don't know of any Kentucky farms that would let boarders show up unannounced, make their own hours and walk through the fields at their leisure --unless you own the place.
Crystal's post is right on and here's another thought: the original poster set the scene and said the words but not the demeanor. Under the right circumstances (ie your horse is obviously being well cared for and you respect them), there is a lot to be said for ingratiating yourself a little. No you don't tip if you're a client but I have brought a platter of homemade cookies as a thank you for their time after a particularly long visit. You'd be amazed at how little gestures can grease the wheels and make them look forward to seeing you again. I've also never interrogated anyone. Occasionally I've gone up and see a booboo on a horse that I didn't know about and I'll ask what they are doing and what it means but I've never flown off the handle.
Ultimately and ideally you should be at a boarding farm because you feel they are doing the best job for your horse. But courtesy is a two way street and frankly I don't know of any Kentucky farms that would let boarders show up unannounced, make their own hours and walk through the fields at their leisure --unless you own the place.
Being a person that absolutely hates when people show up unexpected, I always call ahead or expect a call ahead. Doesn't matter if the call is a week early or an hour early , a heads up is always appreciated. I know the view is but it is my money my horse...well it is also someone else's property, someone else's insurance, someone else's daily routine. I think a place that requires days to get ready for a visit is suspicious. A few hours should be fine, even if all you get is an answering machine, at least you tried.
Not all owners know what end of a horse is what. Not all horse people are good with all horses. Not all horses have the same day every day. Because there are so many variables I can see why a boarding facility would want a buzz before one pops over. Unless that is one of the selling points of the place, visit any time any where no notice needed. Usually the only places like that are ones in which they provide land and building but you provide care and feed. But being clear from the get go saves a lot of time and aggravation in the end.
Not all owners know what end of a horse is what. Not all horse people are good with all horses. Not all horses have the same day every day. Because there are so many variables I can see why a boarding facility would want a buzz before one pops over. Unless that is one of the selling points of the place, visit any time any where no notice needed. Usually the only places like that are ones in which they provide land and building but you provide care and feed. But being clear from the get go saves a lot of time and aggravation in the end.
trying to come up with something brillant..... this may take a while.
Where are you guys to bring me cookies and brownies??? I'd just like a coffee once in awhile.. or maybe a diet Coke.. but man cookies and brownies.. I might be at the wrong farm.
Communication.. thats all it is. Thats all we need. Let me know you're coming.. Even if you're a red light away. Just so I can make sure I am ready to answer any questions you may have about the care your horse has recieved, is going to recieve, or the who-what-when she maybe going to be going to the shed.
It's a working relationship, but as always communication is key.
Communication.. thats all it is. Thats all we need. Let me know you're coming.. Even if you're a red light away. Just so I can make sure I am ready to answer any questions you may have about the care your horse has recieved, is going to recieve, or the who-what-when she maybe going to be going to the shed.
It's a working relationship, but as always communication is key.
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest since I've recenty had to move my broodmares and yearling. We were very comfortable with where we had been, but they sold the farm, the new people didn't want outside boarders, and for the short while that we stayed there while we looked around at other farms, they screwed up my bill. The previous owners had been very accomodating, since I don't live near the farm, so when I would visit I would enjoy long daily visits, 3 or 4 days at a time, but only every couple of months. I would, however, always call and give them a heads up that I would be there. It just seemed like the polite thing to do, besides, even though I could call to get a report on the horses, once I had seen them I would always want to discuss issues about their care with them. I also gave them thank you stuff, couldn't bake (no kitchen!) but this year gave them World Series shirts (thanks to hubby and his Red Sox).
Now we shipped the mares out to foal and be bred at a couple of upstate farms. We sent them early so I didn't have to move them twice. Both farm managers have been extremely nice about the situation, have called me several times to tell me about how the mares are doing. Before we shipped the mares away from their original farm (now with different owner) one of the mares had cast herself in her small paddock they had moved her to because they were receeding the pasture that she had been in. She had a gash on her leg, covered in mud, which I noticed and mentioned to the manager, who said he would wash and take care of it. Then I left, and when I got the call from the new manager at the farm where she is now, the "infected cut" was the first concern out of his mouth, and apparently she was favoring it, and they have been treating it aggressively. And apparently nothing had been done as far as treatment earlier.
So I have run the gamut on care for these horses in the last few months. The new place also seems nice, well run, and comes well-recommended. I did a lot of research on many farms, talked to a lot of people and tried to get a feel for each place. And a physical tour of the farm, meeting all the people, with a feeling of comfort and competence was a must for me.
But it is also an ongoing process to see how the new farm manages my horses, expecially when all of them get back there. I am very hands on, ask lots of questions, do a lot of looking around to see how they manage all of the horses, not just mine. And I would always give them a heads up call. I wouldn't expect them to tell me I couldn't come, but I would think that as a courtesy I would let them know I was coming.
Now we shipped the mares out to foal and be bred at a couple of upstate farms. We sent them early so I didn't have to move them twice. Both farm managers have been extremely nice about the situation, have called me several times to tell me about how the mares are doing. Before we shipped the mares away from their original farm (now with different owner) one of the mares had cast herself in her small paddock they had moved her to because they were receeding the pasture that she had been in. She had a gash on her leg, covered in mud, which I noticed and mentioned to the manager, who said he would wash and take care of it. Then I left, and when I got the call from the new manager at the farm where she is now, the "infected cut" was the first concern out of his mouth, and apparently she was favoring it, and they have been treating it aggressively. And apparently nothing had been done as far as treatment earlier.
So I have run the gamut on care for these horses in the last few months. The new place also seems nice, well run, and comes well-recommended. I did a lot of research on many farms, talked to a lot of people and tried to get a feel for each place. And a physical tour of the farm, meeting all the people, with a feeling of comfort and competence was a must for me.
But it is also an ongoing process to see how the new farm manages my horses, expecially when all of them get back there. I am very hands on, ask lots of questions, do a lot of looking around to see how they manage all of the horses, not just mine. And I would always give them a heads up call. I wouldn't expect them to tell me I couldn't come, but I would think that as a courtesy I would let them know I was coming.
Ironically, we were on our way to Pin Oak in PA to look at stallions [no relation to the Pin Oak in Kentucky, by the way] when we heard from ruaff that he'd be moving his mare from there.
When we got there, the gates were across the driveway [which I understand is their custom] & someone had to come out & let us in. So I'm thinking that's a sign they're pretty serious about their "call first" policy, even if they maybe didn't articulate it to ruaff early in the relationship.
On the other hand, they were ready for us & polite & we did talk about a couple of our own requirements as mare-owners, figuring if we didn't agree on those basics, there are plenty of other stallions out there.
But had we not already spoken with ruaff, I'd never have suspected it was anything other than a normal Saturday at Pin Oak. I've only been there two or three times, so I'm no expert.
This is one of the hardest situations to navigate - if you own a horse, you are responsible for the horse & should have access to it, day & night. If you are a landowner, you should get to make the rules for when someone can visit your property.
Good communication is really the big deal, and means having the horse owner & property owner understand each other's expectations ahead of time.
I think riding horse boarding stables are pretty good at telling the owners their rules & what hourse the barn will be open, mostly because there are some folks who would sleep at the stable, if they could.
But I think that TB facilities don't necessarily expect hands-on owners who live close enough to visit [or even would recognize their mare among all the others in the field]. So maybe the subject doesn't come up as often as it should, when the relationship begins.
I know this discussion has been very thought-provoking for me.
When we got there, the gates were across the driveway [which I understand is their custom] & someone had to come out & let us in. So I'm thinking that's a sign they're pretty serious about their "call first" policy, even if they maybe didn't articulate it to ruaff early in the relationship.
On the other hand, they were ready for us & polite & we did talk about a couple of our own requirements as mare-owners, figuring if we didn't agree on those basics, there are plenty of other stallions out there.
But had we not already spoken with ruaff, I'd never have suspected it was anything other than a normal Saturday at Pin Oak. I've only been there two or three times, so I'm no expert.
This is one of the hardest situations to navigate - if you own a horse, you are responsible for the horse & should have access to it, day & night. If you are a landowner, you should get to make the rules for when someone can visit your property.
Good communication is really the big deal, and means having the horse owner & property owner understand each other's expectations ahead of time.
I think riding horse boarding stables are pretty good at telling the owners their rules & what hourse the barn will be open, mostly because there are some folks who would sleep at the stable, if they could.
But I think that TB facilities don't necessarily expect hands-on owners who live close enough to visit [or even would recognize their mare among all the others in the field]. So maybe the subject doesn't come up as often as it should, when the relationship begins.
I know this discussion has been very thought-provoking for me.
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nythoroughbredvz
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One thing you have to remember many of the replies were based on experiences with where they were boarding their horses, year round, for foaling etc... Ruaff had his mare at the farm to be bred because he was interested in a specific stallion for that year! that is not the same scenario as where someone boards their horse! there are many more questions and concerns in Ruaff's sittuation!
Is his mare being taken care of well enough to assure conceiving, and well enough to stay that way!
It is not the same thing as daily boarding, you have hopes that your mare will get into foal and be able to go home!
Calling ahead is fine and courteouse. but I have had a bad experience with mare care for breeding season. And I can assure you I will never let that happen again. and the only way you can assure that is to show up with no or minimal advanced notice to assure they have water, have hay, appear to be feed as they should! sad, but fact!
But after my experience anywhere I take my mares from now on "will" be told I will make unanounced visits "alone"and if they have a issue with that then I wont go there!
And when I tell them that I also ask if its ok to bring my 13yo son because he is interested in thoroughbreds, wants to be a veterinarian, and I want to add him to everything I can to aid in his involvement. if they are ok with that then I take him with me. If they are not then he goes when I schedule an appointment! I havent been to Grantville PA yet to see my mare, she has been there for months, but they know I will show up unanounced the first few times. But I'm comfortable with the people she is with and will be going there within the next 2 weeks.
M e and my family being involved in the hoby of breeding and the care of my horses is much more important to me than being considerate that I may disrupt a workers or farm owners day for 5-10 minutes maybe a few times during breeding season. at 20 dollars a day I will make sure they are being taken care of to insure a healthy conception, and conditioning to assure I end up with a mare that foals!
Is his mare being taken care of well enough to assure conceiving, and well enough to stay that way!
It is not the same thing as daily boarding, you have hopes that your mare will get into foal and be able to go home!
Calling ahead is fine and courteouse. but I have had a bad experience with mare care for breeding season. And I can assure you I will never let that happen again. and the only way you can assure that is to show up with no or minimal advanced notice to assure they have water, have hay, appear to be feed as they should! sad, but fact!
But after my experience anywhere I take my mares from now on "will" be told I will make unanounced visits "alone"and if they have a issue with that then I wont go there!
And when I tell them that I also ask if its ok to bring my 13yo son because he is interested in thoroughbreds, wants to be a veterinarian, and I want to add him to everything I can to aid in his involvement. if they are ok with that then I take him with me. If they are not then he goes when I schedule an appointment! I havent been to Grantville PA yet to see my mare, she has been there for months, but they know I will show up unanounced the first few times. But I'm comfortable with the people she is with and will be going there within the next 2 weeks.
M e and my family being involved in the hoby of breeding and the care of my horses is much more important to me than being considerate that I may disrupt a workers or farm owners day for 5-10 minutes maybe a few times during breeding season. at 20 dollars a day I will make sure they are being taken care of to insure a healthy conception, and conditioning to assure I end up with a mare that foals!
nythoroughbredvz wrote:One thing you have to remember many of the replies were based on experiences with where they were boarding their horses, year round, for foaling etc... Ruaff had his mare at the farm to be bred because he was interested in a specific stallion for that year! that is not the same scenario as where someone boards their horse! there are many more questions and concerns in Ruaff's sittuation!
Is his mare being taken care of well enough to assure conceiving, and well enough to stay that way!
It is not the same thing as daily boarding, you have hopes that your mare will get into foal and be able to go home!
I don't see the difference frankly. My relationship with my current farm stemmed from when I sent a mare to be bred by one of their stallions. I was so happy with their care and their facilities, I left her there. Then I sent back her to Kentucky, essentially had the same temporary relationship with a farm there and brought her back to the first farm. Honestly I didn't treat anyone differently nor was I treated differently. A lot of this is just business and common courtesy.
But admittedly I've been lucky. Everyone I've ever used in the horse business has come highly recommended by people I trust so I've never been in the position of being adversarial or checking up on people I was unsure of. That said, whether its fair or not, there are stallions I won't use because of the farms they are at and what I've heard. It's a tough balancing act at times and you have to feel comfortable with the professionals you hire--and then you have to treat them with respect.
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nythoroughbredvz
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Sysonby wrote:nythoroughbredvz wrote:One thing you have to remember many of the replies were based on experiences with where they were boarding their horses, year round, for foaling etc... Ruaff had his mare at the farm to be bred because he was interested in a specific stallion for that year! that is not the same scenario as where someone boards their horse! there are many more questions and concerns in Ruaff's sittuation!
Is his mare being taken care of well enough to assure conceiving, and well enough to stay that way!
It is not the same thing as daily boarding, you have hopes that your mare will get into foal and be able to go home!
I don't see the difference frankly. My relationship with my current farm stemmed from when I sent a mare to be bred by one of their stallions. I was so happy with their care and their facilities, I left her there. Then I sent back her to Kentucky, essentially had the same temporary relationship with a farm there and brought her back to the first farm. Honestly I didn't treat anyone differently nor was I treated differently. A lot of this is just business and common courtesy.
But admittedly I've been lucky. Everyone I've ever used in the horse business has come highly recommended by people I trust so I've never been in the position of being adversarial or checking up on people I was unsure of. That said, whether its fair or not, there are stallions I won't use because of the farms they are at and what I've heard. It's a tough balancing act at times and you have to feel comfortable with the professionals you hire--and then you have to treat them with respect.
there is a difference! you take your mare to a stallion and expect it to be cared for, part of your decision is based on the stallion is where he is! you dont have the luxury to ask them to bring the stallion to your mare! you have to trust them that they will take care of your mare. Boarding is much different , you can shop around for someone that you are comfortable with and have confidence in! when you pull into a million or multi million dollar farm you expect and asume they would take care of your mare's. I have had better luck finding a farm involved in rescues for boarding than farms involved stricktly in thoroughbreds. im not making any assumptions or acusations, so dont take it the wrong way! but there are people on here that help unwanted horses daily involved in thoroughbreds that I would feel comfortable having my horses with them without question.. one is GERRY and I have never met her or been to their farm! she does a lot for the horse, she has trucked horses, found homes etc.. And just from her posts and thank you's she has gotten here I know she has the heart to take care of them! On the other hand I had 2 of my mares at a farm thats well advertised, and was reffered to me by the stallion farm that itself is one of the nicest farms in that state, to have them not taken care of! And I made my decision based on seeing the stallion farm, and their refferal. never again! boarding and breeding away from home where you have no control or insight is not the same! boarded horses when you visit a farm normally have been there a while, at least some of them, so you can evaluate the farms overall care to the horse!, someone boarding broodmares for breeding season has them for short periods of time and you get the ill effects of it after you pick up your mares! totally different..
Thanks for the discussion - i DO see both sides.
Like I said - JUST not the relationship for me.
KB - the gates HAVE NEVER been up when I've visited.
Remember too - i showed up at 10:45 on a Saturday - you'd think they would expect a visitor or two. Had I really known the policy - I would have called. For him to kick me out after one warning was in my opinion VERY UNPROFESSIONAL and to say I could come back to breed was just BALLSY - needless to say there are many options and the stud fee will noy be going there.
NU - Clarification - she shipped directly there from Keenland - In foal to a KY stallion and I intended to have her foal there and then MAYBE go back to a Pin Oak Lane stallions.
I'm picking her up tomorrow and brimging her to my place - which I really should have done in the first place.
Like I said - JUST not the relationship for me.
KB - the gates HAVE NEVER been up when I've visited.
Remember too - i showed up at 10:45 on a Saturday - you'd think they would expect a visitor or two. Had I really known the policy - I would have called. For him to kick me out after one warning was in my opinion VERY UNPROFESSIONAL and to say I could come back to breed was just BALLSY - needless to say there are many options and the stud fee will noy be going there.
NU - Clarification - she shipped directly there from Keenland - In foal to a KY stallion and I intended to have her foal there and then MAYBE go back to a Pin Oak Lane stallions.
I'm picking her up tomorrow and brimging her to my place - which I really should have done in the first place.
Just one more thing - You can't cover up neglect in a day. But you also get warning to maybe not do something you shouldn't be doing when an owner is around. Maybe it's AI on a thoroughbred, maybe it's giving a drug, maybe it's.........But you won't be doing it if you know someone is coming.
I saw nor suspected any of this but once the issue is raised the mind gets to thinking....I'm buliding a conspiracy theory that I am going to stop right..............................................................NOW - and just give my mare the best care psooible here so she has a nice big strapping foal - 2 yeard old baby (human), 50 hour workweek at my "real job" and kidney transplant aside. I'll find all the time I need
I saw nor suspected any of this but once the issue is raised the mind gets to thinking....I'm buliding a conspiracy theory that I am going to stop right..............................................................NOW - and just give my mare the best care psooible here so she has a nice big strapping foal - 2 yeard old baby (human), 50 hour workweek at my "real job" and kidney transplant aside. I'll find all the time I need
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nythoroughbredvz
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Goodluck with your mare, I was new to this as far as having my own mares, my father had homebreds while i was growing up, but I never had the buisness end of it before! just the end you have to clean up after!! The farm where my mares were were saving on feed cost's, that I could tell just through observation, and my veterinarian looking at them the day I brought each home. His first words when he saw one mare was! did they even feed her? she was drastically dehydrated, light etc.. I should have suspected something when I picked up the first mare that she was lighter than when I took her there, but she got in foal rather quickly and had less of a stay there! the other was there almost 5 months and you could see every day in her condition! she never was in foal, or aborted early, my vet thinks she consumed the foal because of her health and I agree. the farms vet told me she did check in foal 2 weeks prior to me picking her up! so who to believe im unsure.. doesnt matter now, lesson learned! also the mare was new wasnt the heaviest when I got her and after I picked her up she was thought of as a hard keeper. she looks great now she just needed to be taken care of and was never a hard keeper!