Have Lasix and other drugs ruined racing?

[Bid]

Good luck. Unfortunately the surgery was new back then and didn't work for ours. 4F was the charm. That's as far as a horse can run before aerobic work has to kick in.

[Sysonby]

I'd like to hear from people in racing before Lasix was legalized. I've heard anecdotally about the things that had to be done to bleeders pre Lasix (like "drawing down" and withholding water) and Lasix seems OK to me compared to that.

But I wasn't around back then and maybe I've been misinformed.

[ratherrapid]

my guess, you'll find near zero percent of those on the front line racing horses complaining about lasix. Bid, I fear you have added to those posts that steadily become a self-fulfilling prophecy that everything inracing is about drugs. People take their aspirins, and horses take their bute. My horses avoid the bute, but many trainers like to get the anti-inflamatory in the system as quickly as possible.

Lasix? If you complain about it in horses, you're without experience with it. were you a horse with a lung lesion you'd be begging for it every gallop. Lasix is given to help bleeders and prevent horses from becoming bleeders, and, weirdly, it mostly works. Are you disputing that Bid? Are you wanting us to race bleeders and create bleeders?

While it is probably true that appropriate training will solve the bleeding problem in about 75% of them, the fact is that training for most of our horses has a long way to go before we'd get to the point. Meanwhile, thank goodness we do have lasix.

[KamiBrooks]

Has anyone seen any results published from the Lasix study that was run in South Africa? The races were supposed to have happened in Nov. Seems like its taking a long time to hear any results.

[Bid]

Ratherrapid- I have no medical experience but I understand it works and why. Most of my horses have been on Lasix at some point because that is what the trainer advised and I frankly didn't know enough to question them. How many horses have lung lesions? Do you think that all the horses on Lasix are bleeders? If you do I fear you've been misled. Those front line people you speak of- are they trainers and owners who don't want to invest the time into proper training? So, it's about the money as usual.
I am not blaming everything on drugs. I blame everything on people who indiscriminately dispense drugs because they cut corners. They are greedy, lazy and have no respect for the sport. I have some other points to address but alas I must leave for work.

[Jean]

No matter what the breeding drugs hurt. we are seeing fewer and fewer starts per horse of course because they are being run back sooner as they had aches and pains etc before and you had to use horsemanship to deal with the problem not just more drugs. Horses are making fewer starts then being retired to the breeding shed to continue the problem. Our whole breed is falling apart. If you don't run on lasix you are missing the advantage that everyone else using it is getting so unless you want to continue to run at a disadvantage and can afford to you lose

[theballandchain]

Sys, we still draw horses. Some people depending on the severity of the bleeding will do it overnight. BUT mostly water and feed are pulled at last time on race day, about 4 hours.
Rather rapid, well said.
An earlier post said that the poster was saddened by the number of horses that were on lasix in a race card. The thing that is left unsaid is that they don't have to be a known bleeder to run on lasix. Many people will run a first time starter on a small dose (3cc) of lasix in order to help prevent bleeding therefore pain associated with running. If we can make an effort to help prevent the lungs from having lesions and scar tissue isn't that the kind thing to do? Last I heard lung function is necessary for life let alone athletic performance. I don't believe that lasix is the devil.
There are so many other things that factor into the rate of injury in racehorses.
Even Bute given pre race, You go take a Tylenol or Advil and see if it is still alleviating any discomfort or acting as an anti inflammatory after 24 to 48 hours (depending on jurisdiction). My guess is that you likely had to re dose yourself within that time frame hour period in order to get the effect of the drug. So how much pain would but actually "mask" after withdrawal time? Very little. Which is why so many give it daily. The effect isn't that long term.
That said am not a big believer in medicating just to medicate. BUT it does have a place. Chronic issues like a small chip that wasn't removed, or arthritic changes, inflamed shins, etc do benefit from anti inflamatories. We take them for our aches and pains, are we, the human race, falling apart at a rapid rate because of it? No.
There are so many things that play into the practice of medicating racehorses. It's not a black and white world.
And medicating horses isn't a new thing.. cobra venom isn't a new thing.. testing is much more stringent and technology is far more sensitive. Injury in racehorses or bleeding in race horses did not begin with the legalization of lasix. Horses have gotten hurt for as long as the horse has been in existence. They are a big bodied animal who stands on a spindly support system.

[Sysonby]

Thanks for that. I don't train horses but I know people who do and when you hear about their day to day regime, the medication issue is not black and white. These are conservative people but if you told them that they couldn't use judicious amounts of NSAIDs and Lasix and Clenbutrol etc, they would look at you like you were crazy. Even more pointedly, they would probably ask why you want to allow horses to suffer through aches and pains when you could alleviate them.

My thought is that moderation and good sense go hand in hand. There's a big difference between the ache of muscle and bone undergoing ordinary remodeling under stress (overdoing it at the gym) and the sharper pain of something that is seriously breaking or tearing. I know there is a certain purity to hay oats and water but based on what I'm hearing from people I respect who have to deal with the nuts and bolts of a racing stable on a day to day basis, it's just not realistic.

I'd love to hear more hands on perspective about this issue.

[Gallop58]

The South African lasix study is scheduled to be published in mid to late 2008 I was told. I'm not sure what it can realistically be expected to show, but it should be of some interest.

I'm a big proponent of writing highly inflated purses for conditioned races (non-lasix). I have never seen it though. Anyone ever seen a race written like that? Even one that didn't fill?

KH

[Barbaro06]

Sys, we still draw horses. Some people depending on the severity of the bleeding will do it overnight. BUT mostly water and feed are pulled at last time on race day, about 4 hours.
Rather rapid, well said.
An earlier post said that the poster was saddened by the number of horses that were on lasix in a race card. The thing that is left unsaid is that they don't have to be a known bleeder to run on lasix. Many people will run a first time starter on a small dose (3cc) of lasix in order to help prevent bleeding therefore pain associated with running. If we can make an effort to help prevent the lungs from having lesions and scar tissue isn't that the kind thing to do? Last I heard lung function is necessary for life let alone athletic performance. I don't believe that lasix is the devil.
There are so many other things that factor into the rate of injury in racehorses.
Even Bute given pre race, You go take a Tylenol or Advil and see if it is still alleviating any discomfort or acting as an anti inflammatory after 24 to 48 hours (depending on jurisdiction). My guess is that you likely had to re dose yourself within that time frame hour period in order to get the effect of the drug. So how much pain would but actually "mask" after withdrawal time? Very little. Which is why so many give it daily. The effect isn't that long term.
That said am not a big believer in medicating just to medicate. BUT it does have a place. Chronic issues like a small chip that wasn't removed, or arthritic changes, inflamed shins, etc do benefit from anti inflamatories. We take them for our aches and pains, are we, the human race, falling apart at a rapid rate because of it? No.
There are so many things that play into the practice of medicating racehorses. It's not a black and white world.
And medicating horses isn't a new thing.. cobra venom isn't a new thing.. testing is much more stringent and technology is far more sensitive. Injury in racehorses or bleeding in race horses did not begin with the legalization of lasix. Horses have gotten hurt for as long as the horse has been in existence. They are a big bodied animal who stands on a spindly support system.

What causes the lesions on the lungs? Is it from exertion? I'm curious to know how horses become bleeders. Sure medication has its place, but what's the problem with resting a horse and monitoring its recovery? Yeah, us humans take meds too for our aches and pains, but too much of them can rot our guts and mess with our livers. As I am fond to say, "it's a complex issue..." Thanks for sharing your insights...

[spex4me]

While it is probably true that appropriate training will solve the bleeding problem in about 75% of them, the fact is that training for most of our horses has a long way to go before we'd get to the point. Meanwhile, thank goodness we do have lasix

.

Ratherrapid your view is appreciated and knowledgeable but it is this little quote that bothers me most. APPROPRIATE TRAINING ....why is that such a foreign concept anymore? Damn I wish I knew if they really doped the greats of yester year because all I have to go off of is that horses raced ALOT and SUPPOSEDLY without the aid of medication. What is it that allowed Spectacular Bid and others to pump out 5 plus races as a 2 year old. The freaks of nature argument just doesn't hold water with me. How many so called freaks of nature can there possibly be, and if there is THAT many why are we not just racing those horses and putting the others to other uses??? Deep down I think my views would be forever tainted if I ever found out for sure that Bid or Affirmed were juiced with anything, for they are what racing dreams to me are made of.

On the other tangent, bleeding has to be to some extent a genetic fault also. I guess it is easier for me since I own one whopping horse to say that if she bleeds more than what can be reasonably expected it's off to the show ring she goes. I guess if the Lasix issue was truly black or white, I would have more comfort in it one way or another. And what about other aerobic activities involving horses? Endurance races per say? Do they also medicate with it? Bute if treated like a Tylenol, I have no issue with, but even I don't pop a Tylenol everyday. Also what about an apirin based product......does it not thin the blood and act as a mild analgesic? Okay stopping with the 20 questions.....but inquiring mind(s) want to know.

[Linda_d]

I think the telling thing to consider about the use of Lasix, bute, and other drugs in the US is this: they aren't allowed in Europe, and most of the rest of the world, where TBs are raced. This doesn't mean that the Europeans don't treat horses with Lasix or bute or other drugs, but it does mean that they can't run horses with the drug in their systems. If horses can race without drugs elsewhere, how come they need them in the US?

Personally, my view is to bar horses on Lasix and other drugs from all stakes races since this is where the popular studs that sire 100+ foals a year come from. This would also allow lower-echelon horses to keep running if they did develop breathing problems, but would lessen the impact on the breed genetically. I would also prohibit 2-year-olds running on meds at all.

[Tiz]

It's called the "thumps". It's caused by electrolyte imbalance, which is caused by dehydration. The sound is made by the diaphragm, and is similar to hiccups.

[Tiz]

It seems that regardless of the therapeutic value of a drug, the public perception of it's use in our horses is bad. Racing depends on public support, so if we're serious about horse racing, drugs need to go.

Love the idea of seeing "drug free" races in the condition book.

[ratherrapid]

bid--think i misread ur post a little and just reverted to a pro-lasix rants. interesting idea about a super horse, though my thinking would be we're seeing superior breeding and training of late. will have to think about ur lasix idea.

Appropriate training? It's tough, riders, money, time, facilities, finding a trainder. Lot's of obstacles.

Spex i never used lasix on a horse until I had one bleed. that wakes you up to horse lung issues on this side of the Atlantic. It's different in Europe. though i might like to know how they do it in NY.