The closest example of inbreeding

[reenci]

no way! Mr.p bred his own daughter? yuck. Who owned the dam?

Syndicate member and/or holder of a lifetime breeding share. Same outfit also bred several 2x2's to Mr. P. - Millie Mukora, Winloc's Joyful, et al.

i have to wonder what there human family tree looks like !

[Bill from WA]

Hi Ramona

I am assuming you are talking about Guy Roberts. Most of his success has come with mares that are bred to his stallion Petersburg. Petersburg is inbred 3x3 to Nearctic, 4x4 to Native Dancer, 5x5 to Mahmoud, and 5x5 to Fighting Fox. It makes sense to outcross using such an inbred stallion in order to instill hybrid vigor in the resulting foal. The most successful runner in 2003 for the Roberts' was Mr Tipsy. His pedigree features some pretty intense deep line breeding. 5/5x5/6 to Nearco, 6/6x6 to Pharos, 6x6 to Fair Trial, and 6x5 to Hyperion. Ms Tipsy, the dam of Mr Tipsy, is line bred to Nasrullah 4x5, and to Nearco 5x5. Guy Bar farm has been very successful over the years, but there is more inbreeding/linebreeding there than meets the eye at first glance.

Respectfully,

Bill

[diomed]

Look at Spanker Mare 1675......That has to be the winner

[Pan Zareta]

no way! Mr.p bred his own daughter? yuck. Who owned the dam?

Syndicate member and/or holder of a lifetime breeding share. Same outfit also bred several 2x2's to Mr. P. - Millie Mukora, Winloc's Joyful, et al.

i have to wonder what there human family tree looks like !

Their cognitive abilities as reflected by their breeding practices suggest a degree of impairment that might the result of inbreeding.

Diomed, the Spanker mare is the same degree of inbreeding as Winloc's Millie, it's just putting a sire on his dam instead of his daughter.

Ultimus is about as inbred as should be registerable - jmho.

[monicabee]

Inbreeding in America the eighteenth century seems to have been more common - either because breeders were trying to "fix" lines or because they had limited access to blooded stallions if they weren't in a breeding center like Virginia.There was awareness and discussion of the risks - A son of Eclipse out of his daughter who was so over at the knee he could barely walk was an example cited.

As I understand it, one of the risks is not just that you may double up undesirable recesessive traits that have been masked, but that the number of immune system genes that are transmitted are reduced, weakening the inbred horse's resistance to disease. So the offspring might look great, but not thrive...

The two examples, both mares, I am thinking of are not in this database, unfortunately, perhaps because their lines died out after a few generations. The inbreeding isn't necessarily the reason - but it is tempting to think so.

[diomed]

Interesting that you bring that up. I believe that Sir Archy was bred to some of his daughters..I can't think of the names off the top of my head but I do believe that some of these mare lines survived.
If you study the background of the TB you will find numerous instances of extreme inbreeding. Considering the time period and lack of transportation it makes sense in both foundation(english) stock and early American stock. One thing to consider is that they were more judicious in their culling. Many that did not fit the grade where eradicated right where they stood. I have read stories of breeders literally shooting a crooked foal. It sounds cruel, but it was necessary for the time and it helped weed out the bad. Unfortunately today we have advanced surgical procedures to straighten out crooked and/or unworthy individuals(Real Quiet). I am a firm believer that the TB was developed by extreme inbreeding, since it was a hybrid. The TB still is in it's infancy and outcrossing generation over generation does no good for the breed as a whole. While extreme inbreeding is no longer necessary, some inbreeding is(ex, 3x3) along with intense linebreeding. Outcrossing still works when it is applied to an inbred or heavily linebred individual...Thus hybrid vigor..This, however, is usually only good for one generation..

Inbreeding in America the eighteenth century seems to have been more common - either because breeders were trying to "fix" lines or because they had limited access to blooded stallions if they weren't in a breeding center like Virginia.There was awareness and discussion of the risks - A son of Eclipse out of his daughter who was so over at the knee he could barely walk was an example cited.

As I understand it, one of the risks is not just that you may double up undesirable recesessive traits that have been masked, but that the number of immune system genes that are transmitted are reduced, weakening the inbred horse's resistance to disease. So the offspring might look great, but not thrive...

The two examples, both mares, I am thinking of are not in this database, unfortunately, perhaps because their lines died out after a few generations. The inbreeding isn't necessarily the reason - but it is tempting to think so.

[Pan Zareta]

Interesting that you bring that up. I believe that Sir Archy was bred to some of his daughters..I can't think of the names off the top of my head but I do believe that some of these mare lines survived.

Flirtilla's (1828, Sir Archy - Old Flirtilla by Sir Archy) branch of ff 4r (taproot - *Cub Mare) is still very active in tail female, especially through Madcap(1908) & Lady Violet(1890).

[Bettina]

Hallo,
admiitingly some of the horses I will write about are real "oldtimesr", but I will point out to which families they belong today.

One of the members of the board already told us, in the early stages of thoroughbredbreeding a very high percentage of the horses were extremly inbred and gives the reason why. What he/she said is absoluty correct.

But now let's turn to my findings.
In 1802 a mare was bred 1x1 FB/FS (Sir Peter Teazle/Brown Bess) or 2x2 to Papillon, her name was Brown Russet. She is the 5th dam of 'Sprig of Shillelegh'.
He even had a son named Donnybrook. after 2-3 generations this family went to Australia and the family still exists. With the help of the database I could trace a living descent named Calisto Star.

To made things even more complex there is a couple of FS/FB named Milo, Agonistes, Robin Redbreast and Tiny (all by Highflyer), all bred 2x2 Papillon!. A hypomating reveals there are so called 7/8 relatives (Brown Russet/Milo). I have a look now at the brothers.
Milo: He is in the damline of the Sire Ithuriel, who inturn is extend his sireline to Toxophilite. Toxophilite is the sire of Quiver, Musket, a Toxophilite Mare of Fam. 9, later became the Maid of Masham branch
Toxophilite Mare of Fam. 5, is now bestknown as the branch fam 5-h tracing to Dalmary.
Milo had a son name Eryx, sire of Elvira found in damline of Hyperion and all his relatives

Agonistes: He is in the damline of the famous mare Bees Wing (by Dr. Syntax), see Newminster, Violet, Feronia etc.

Robin Redbreast: That should be interesting. He was imported to America. I already saw his name in several American peds. Yes, and he is in Old Flirtilla! Another branch of family 4-r and keep in mind, it's the same branch as Catnip (Nearco, Niccolo dell'arca). So I had a had a look at her ped again. He is to find in per ped, too. Go back to Miss Obstinate, he is by Sumpter and his damsire is Robin Redbreast! Her Granddaugther Maiden is 3x4 Sumpter, so she had a double infusion.

Here are some more instances of close inbreeding:
St. Denis 1x3 FB/FS St. Simon/Angelica, see La Troienne
High Time 2x3x3 Domino, see That's That, 6th dam of Miesque
Domino (by Himyar) and Burgomaster (Hamburg) are another examples of inbreeding especially to Gallopade/Lexington/Leamington.

Btw, Germanbreeders don't shy away from those kind of breeding. It's not done too often, but here are 2 more contemporary examples.
Fabioso (by Medaaly), he is inbred 2x2 Highest Honor and Adlan (by Lando). Himself inbred 2x3 Acatenango (by Surumu), Lando is 3x3 FB/FS Literat/Liberty and his damsire Danehil is 3x3 Natalma. Both peds are in the database.

Best regards from Germany, Bettina

[BenB]

maybe not the closest inbeeding but still. Look to Herbager

[Kristie]

Villamor was bred to his dam and produced Burmese Bomb who, according to the database won over 900,000.