the INDIVIDUAL...priority one...over pedigree etc
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louis finochio
- Darley line
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- Location: Alhambra-Calif.
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To LSB: No I havent seen Successful Appeal in person, I read what FOS said about his conformation in an earlier thread. FOS was very positive about SA conformation.
FOS can you comment on SA conformation for us, or direct us to the earlier thread. Thanks.
FOS can you comment on SA conformation for us, or direct us to the earlier thread. Thanks.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
hi Yukidragon
You wrote "To tell people conformation over pedigree you need a different breed of horse bud."
Yukidragon...conformation does not mean perfection...it's all about structure...symmetry...physical form...how various parts are arranged...and understanding what one is seeing, and recognizing and identifying the strengths and weakness of the structure (symmetry...form etc) and interpreting (or understanding) how these factors may or may not translate into (or affect) the sales-appeal, soundness and performance etc etc of the thoroughbred athlete.
Regarding pedigree...it too comes into play...it always does...and your stated premise is "Pedigree is first." With that in mind how about considering the following "conformation" related hypo...
...you might agree that if the late Dale Earnhardt (who you referenced) had to choose a race car to compete with and it was between 2 brand new Nascar-ready race cars that physically were duplicates and as near perfect as humanly possibly in every respect...except that one car had a very "crooked" frame and one had a "perfect" frame...Earnhardt would have chosen the car with the "perfect" frame (All Things Considered including everything else being equal).
I suggest that in the same way that a flaw in a potential race car's structure (aka conformation) would affect the decision making process when selecting a Nascar race car....similarly such a flaw in a horse's structure (aka conformation) would affect the decision making process when selecting a thoroughbred.
Yukidragon you wrote "I suggest that late Dale Earnhardt could also beat most corvette drivers with a ford pinto."
Some day you may put up some serious dollars in the thoroughbred "game" (respectfully Yukidragon it does not sound like you have)...and if and when you do...you buy your "pintos" and I and others will buy our "corvettes" (or better)...and we'll wave to you from the winner's circle.
Yukidragon...you may have something valuable to offer...but until you cut out the gibberish...personal attacks...red herrings...and nonsense...it's difficult to take you seriously.
I recommend that if you try and understand or at least respectfully consider others viewpoints and genuinely join the debate (rather than snipe etc)...and ask questions (and answer questions) that may advance the discussion, and offer quality insights regarding all aspects of breeding, raising and/or racing thoroughbreds...we all (including you) might learn something...and possibly benefit.
As I wrote previously Yukidragon "I believe that to succeed (over the long term) in this game a breeder must make the production of (physically) high quality individuals the keystone of their program."
Respectfully
You wrote "To tell people conformation over pedigree you need a different breed of horse bud."
Yukidragon...conformation does not mean perfection...it's all about structure...symmetry...physical form...how various parts are arranged...and understanding what one is seeing, and recognizing and identifying the strengths and weakness of the structure (symmetry...form etc) and interpreting (or understanding) how these factors may or may not translate into (or affect) the sales-appeal, soundness and performance etc etc of the thoroughbred athlete.
Regarding pedigree...it too comes into play...it always does...and your stated premise is "Pedigree is first." With that in mind how about considering the following "conformation" related hypo...
...you might agree that if the late Dale Earnhardt (who you referenced) had to choose a race car to compete with and it was between 2 brand new Nascar-ready race cars that physically were duplicates and as near perfect as humanly possibly in every respect...except that one car had a very "crooked" frame and one had a "perfect" frame...Earnhardt would have chosen the car with the "perfect" frame (All Things Considered including everything else being equal).
I suggest that in the same way that a flaw in a potential race car's structure (aka conformation) would affect the decision making process when selecting a Nascar race car....similarly such a flaw in a horse's structure (aka conformation) would affect the decision making process when selecting a thoroughbred.
Yukidragon you wrote "I suggest that late Dale Earnhardt could also beat most corvette drivers with a ford pinto."
Some day you may put up some serious dollars in the thoroughbred "game" (respectfully Yukidragon it does not sound like you have)...and if and when you do...you buy your "pintos" and I and others will buy our "corvettes" (or better)...and we'll wave to you from the winner's circle.
Yukidragon...you may have something valuable to offer...but until you cut out the gibberish...personal attacks...red herrings...and nonsense...it's difficult to take you seriously.
I recommend that if you try and understand or at least respectfully consider others viewpoints and genuinely join the debate (rather than snipe etc)...and ask questions (and answer questions) that may advance the discussion, and offer quality insights regarding all aspects of breeding, raising and/or racing thoroughbreds...we all (including you) might learn something...and possibly benefit.
As I wrote previously Yukidragon "I believe that to succeed (over the long term) in this game a breeder must make the production of (physically) high quality individuals the keystone of their program."
Respectfully
Okay, I am totally cracking up.
Madelyn, Yuki is from Tennessee, which means that English probably is a second language.
(no offense meant... just a little good natured kidding).
Yuki, you are not going to win this debate with the your premises. I am not going to concede that "conformation is king", but... to ignore conformation completely is to bring about complete failure. Sure there are lots of sound horses with questionable conformation, however it is the type of fault and how the horse compensates which is key.
On the other hand, if you go by solely by pedigree, you are virtually dooming yourself to problems. How many Storm Cat's breakdown? How sound are the Unbridled's (and his "line")? How limiting is the problems inherent with Montbrook's? Yet, by many, these make up some of he best pedigrees in the stallion register.
True, often, if you are looking at the very, very bottom of the barrel, perhaps pedigree does matter. However, I contend that rarely do slow horses breakdown, however fast horses often do.
Does Storm Cat have problematic knees... most certainly. Do certain stallions often "stamp" their foals with certain faults? Well sure. But, the key is to understand this and to understand the dynamics (biomechanics, if you will) to understand how this might affect performance. And more important, how the fault is overcome. For example, it has been suggested that the Storm Cats get most of their power from the hindquarters, thus, they only need to guide with their fronts. On the other hand, some stallions "pull through" more with their front-ends, these need to have better conformation (and usually do).
To play a devil's advocate, the commercial industry is way, way, way to hung up on conformation and vet-reports. Many will tell you that the vet's are running the sales. I think this is why we will continue to see horses such as Singletary outperform horses such with much, much higher sales figures. Personally, I blame the agents, many trainers, and the lack of horsemenship amoung many owners. An agent looks for reasons not to purchase a horse. Conformation problems, vet concerns... et al. provide reasons. Many trainers don't want to be the only guy out on a limb, thus pass on horses who may have minor concerns. In the past, I have actually heard questions in reference to which hip # a particular trainer liked, and then that one added to the "short list". Also, if the owner is more of a horseperson, he is less dependent upon others, more understanding of faults which can be lived with, and less likely to "listen" to the drone of competing agents "advising" him against his the purchase by his trainer or agent.
The one thing I like about Baffert (or at least the McKathan boys) is there ability to "see" through the fault and to the result. Again, they are not looking at the fault per-se, but rather how the horse walks through the fault. If all pieces work or can be made to work, then it is a go. By the way, most of Bafferts superstars had some type of significant "flaw". Some even had "flawed" pedigrees.
Of course, it is all a chance. Personally, I, like most people, understand that if a horse has certain faults, it will not perform to top standards, and with other faults, it will probably have a short career or, at minimum, one pock-marked with bouts of unsoundness. This is the importance of studying conformation. This is why it is important. This is why you cannot just take a catalog and pick future winners.
On the other hand, sometimes conformation is not enough. There are lot's of beautiful horses who cannot struggle to stay ahead of the ambulance. My friend simply says, "... well, they have a future... in the show ring...". What explains these types?
LSB... you are tooo funny!
Madelyn, Yuki is from Tennessee, which means that English probably is a second language.
(no offense meant... just a little good natured kidding).
Yuki, you are not going to win this debate with the your premises. I am not going to concede that "conformation is king", but... to ignore conformation completely is to bring about complete failure. Sure there are lots of sound horses with questionable conformation, however it is the type of fault and how the horse compensates which is key.
On the other hand, if you go by solely by pedigree, you are virtually dooming yourself to problems. How many Storm Cat's breakdown? How sound are the Unbridled's (and his "line")? How limiting is the problems inherent with Montbrook's? Yet, by many, these make up some of he best pedigrees in the stallion register.
True, often, if you are looking at the very, very bottom of the barrel, perhaps pedigree does matter. However, I contend that rarely do slow horses breakdown, however fast horses often do.
Does Storm Cat have problematic knees... most certainly. Do certain stallions often "stamp" their foals with certain faults? Well sure. But, the key is to understand this and to understand the dynamics (biomechanics, if you will) to understand how this might affect performance. And more important, how the fault is overcome. For example, it has been suggested that the Storm Cats get most of their power from the hindquarters, thus, they only need to guide with their fronts. On the other hand, some stallions "pull through" more with their front-ends, these need to have better conformation (and usually do).
To play a devil's advocate, the commercial industry is way, way, way to hung up on conformation and vet-reports. Many will tell you that the vet's are running the sales. I think this is why we will continue to see horses such as Singletary outperform horses such with much, much higher sales figures. Personally, I blame the agents, many trainers, and the lack of horsemenship amoung many owners. An agent looks for reasons not to purchase a horse. Conformation problems, vet concerns... et al. provide reasons. Many trainers don't want to be the only guy out on a limb, thus pass on horses who may have minor concerns. In the past, I have actually heard questions in reference to which hip # a particular trainer liked, and then that one added to the "short list". Also, if the owner is more of a horseperson, he is less dependent upon others, more understanding of faults which can be lived with, and less likely to "listen" to the drone of competing agents "advising" him against his the purchase by his trainer or agent.
The one thing I like about Baffert (or at least the McKathan boys) is there ability to "see" through the fault and to the result. Again, they are not looking at the fault per-se, but rather how the horse walks through the fault. If all pieces work or can be made to work, then it is a go. By the way, most of Bafferts superstars had some type of significant "flaw". Some even had "flawed" pedigrees.
Of course, it is all a chance. Personally, I, like most people, understand that if a horse has certain faults, it will not perform to top standards, and with other faults, it will probably have a short career or, at minimum, one pock-marked with bouts of unsoundness. This is the importance of studying conformation. This is why it is important. This is why you cannot just take a catalog and pick future winners.
On the other hand, sometimes conformation is not enough. There are lot's of beautiful horses who cannot struggle to stay ahead of the ambulance. My friend simply says, "... well, they have a future... in the show ring...". What explains these types?
LSB... you are tooo funny!
steve wrote:Thank you Fos. I am taking her to SKIMMING next week after she gets better from her reaction to the WN vaccine I gave her.
Steve,
I too was considering Skimming. However, I was told he is much smaller than "advertised". That may be a consideration if your mare is small, or the foals are late bloomers. Commercially speaking, "small" does not impress in the auction ring. Not very bright...but that is how it goes.
What KAL said.
We have had expensive, perfectly straight legged yearling purchases here who once under tack and galloping, moved like eggbeaters. Then we have one of our exercise girls, to this day tells how Real Quiet was the most beautiful mover she had ever been on. And the stories of Real Quiet's crooked legs are legend.
Many successful sires and race horses are crooked. A perfect legged horse who moves like an eggbeater pounding the ground will not last long. A crooked horse who moves lightly and fluidly over the ground will often last a long time on the track. So what makes good conformation? Is it what produces that gorgeous million dollar yearling? Or is it what wins the Kentucky Derby. They are often at opposite ends.
We have had expensive, perfectly straight legged yearling purchases here who once under tack and galloping, moved like eggbeaters. Then we have one of our exercise girls, to this day tells how Real Quiet was the most beautiful mover she had ever been on. And the stories of Real Quiet's crooked legs are legend.
Many successful sires and race horses are crooked. A perfect legged horse who moves like an eggbeater pounding the ground will not last long. A crooked horse who moves lightly and fluidly over the ground will often last a long time on the track. So what makes good conformation? Is it what produces that gorgeous million dollar yearling? Or is it what wins the Kentucky Derby. They are often at opposite ends.
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st. louis kid
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:56 pm
I agree with you KAL, way to much empahsis on confirmation at the sales today. The real point is that confirmation is very important if you are breeding horses to sell, because that is what the market is using to determine prices. However, what makes horse racing great is that time after time horses who had flaws and were looked down upon wind up being champions. When you look at confirmation, you can't see heart and courage, and that is what the champs have.
I like how Dogwood Stables buys their horses, they look for yearlings in the 100K-200K range with good breeding but not perfect confirmation. They continue to get good racehorses. If you breed a broodmare with faults, that may hurt you in sellling horses if they pass along those physical faults, but don't confuse that with trying to breed a fast horse. To breed a fast horse look for good racing records in the female families of the broodmares you want and use pedigree analysis to find good nicks for them.
I like how Dogwood Stables buys their horses, they look for yearlings in the 100K-200K range with good breeding but not perfect confirmation. They continue to get good racehorses. If you breed a broodmare with faults, that may hurt you in sellling horses if they pass along those physical faults, but don't confuse that with trying to breed a fast horse. To breed a fast horse look for good racing records in the female families of the broodmares you want and use pedigree analysis to find good nicks for them.
I've been waiting for someone to remind everyone that a horse's action is often a much better indicator of its racing life expectancy than it's conformation. Thanks, Halo, for interjecting this important element. I, too, have a horse in training who is rotated and offset, and to look at him standing one would think he wouldn't stand training. But his gait is so smooth and forgiving that we believe he will last a long time. The exercise boys much prefer him to the ground stompers. Anyone who has ridden can certainly understand why a horse with graceful action will not abuse his legs in ways others will.
If I were a yearling buyer, I would skip the sales and do all my buying at the farm level. Watching a young horse compete in the field with his peers gives me a much greater insight into his potential than a five minute study of his body in an auction environment. No doubt this is one major reason why the 2yo sales are so popular.
I don't believe its fruitful to debate conformation vs. pedigree, as if the two can be isolated from each other. I think a true horseman's view of a horse must include all factors which have contributed to what you see in front of you. Perhaps some kind of quadratic equation would be more in line with what I mean.
I wouldn't buy a horse with a nice pedigree and conformation if I knew he was raised in a small, steep hillside dry paddock. I wouldn't buy a horse who was biomechanically correct but exhibited signs of a deranged mental attitude. Nor would I buy a horse who appeared to have good bone if I knew that his sire and/or dam produced chronically soft boned horses (it's not the width, but the density of bone that matters). And so on. So for someone to insist that it is both clever and popular to breed ONLY for looks, or ONLY for blood, I think is absurd. Most people who race horses want athletes who can perform at the highest levels, for a reasonable length of time, and with a fighting chance of retaining some residual value at the end of their careers. Breeding racehorses shouldn't be like breeding pigs for the county fair, although sometimes it does appear as if that's exactly what some horse breeders are doing. In the end, I don't think they last that long.
If I were a yearling buyer, I would skip the sales and do all my buying at the farm level. Watching a young horse compete in the field with his peers gives me a much greater insight into his potential than a five minute study of his body in an auction environment. No doubt this is one major reason why the 2yo sales are so popular.
I don't believe its fruitful to debate conformation vs. pedigree, as if the two can be isolated from each other. I think a true horseman's view of a horse must include all factors which have contributed to what you see in front of you. Perhaps some kind of quadratic equation would be more in line with what I mean.
I wouldn't buy a horse with a nice pedigree and conformation if I knew he was raised in a small, steep hillside dry paddock. I wouldn't buy a horse who was biomechanically correct but exhibited signs of a deranged mental attitude. Nor would I buy a horse who appeared to have good bone if I knew that his sire and/or dam produced chronically soft boned horses (it's not the width, but the density of bone that matters). And so on. So for someone to insist that it is both clever and popular to breed ONLY for looks, or ONLY for blood, I think is absurd. Most people who race horses want athletes who can perform at the highest levels, for a reasonable length of time, and with a fighting chance of retaining some residual value at the end of their careers. Breeding racehorses shouldn't be like breeding pigs for the county fair, although sometimes it does appear as if that's exactly what some horse breeders are doing. In the end, I don't think they last that long.
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st. louis kid
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:56 pm
hi louis finochio...hi guys
When I first looked at Successful Appeal (years ago)...my first impression was that he was an Extremely athletic-looking (and handsome with a lovely and alert eye) equine athletic. Much more impressive than just another fit and well-groomed horse. It was clear he was beautifully proportioned...a fabulous mover and had a magnetic presence about him. Even when standing still...he looked fast.
I submit that Successful Appeal's overall height can be somewhat deceiving at first glance...but when you stand up next to him it's clear he's a solid 16-1 (possibly plus). I still maintain that even today he has an Extremely athletic way and presence about him...which is supported and enhanced by his beautifully balanced...nicely muscled...somewhat cat-like way in which he carries himself and moves...even as a stallion.
Overall he's still quite "sharp" looking and seems to be the kind that might maintain that "athletic" look and way about himself for many years to come.
He's taller than most Valid Appeals and is not the squatty...short legged...light-boned back-at-the knee type. To that extent he's very different than many of the Valid Appeals that are small and/or thicker than their sire and/or somewhat fragile looking.
He's got very good bone but is not overly abundant or massive in that area...and is a touch offset through his knees. Successful Appeal's profile is outstanding...his neck sits beautifully into his shoulder and he's got good length. Furthermore he moves and puts his feet down near-flawlessly and walks and carries himself in an utterly fluid fashion.
He's a good one...but he's had his issues in the breeding shed. He's certainly able to participate in the breeding process...but sometimes he's been known to just take the day (or 2 or 3) off...for no apparent reason.
Hopefully his move to Ky will suit him just fine...and his willingness and ability to cover and impregnate a larger book may change for the better.
Respectfully
When I first looked at Successful Appeal (years ago)...my first impression was that he was an Extremely athletic-looking (and handsome with a lovely and alert eye) equine athletic. Much more impressive than just another fit and well-groomed horse. It was clear he was beautifully proportioned...a fabulous mover and had a magnetic presence about him. Even when standing still...he looked fast.
I submit that Successful Appeal's overall height can be somewhat deceiving at first glance...but when you stand up next to him it's clear he's a solid 16-1 (possibly plus). I still maintain that even today he has an Extremely athletic way and presence about him...which is supported and enhanced by his beautifully balanced...nicely muscled...somewhat cat-like way in which he carries himself and moves...even as a stallion.
Overall he's still quite "sharp" looking and seems to be the kind that might maintain that "athletic" look and way about himself for many years to come.
He's taller than most Valid Appeals and is not the squatty...short legged...light-boned back-at-the knee type. To that extent he's very different than many of the Valid Appeals that are small and/or thicker than their sire and/or somewhat fragile looking.
He's got very good bone but is not overly abundant or massive in that area...and is a touch offset through his knees. Successful Appeal's profile is outstanding...his neck sits beautifully into his shoulder and he's got good length. Furthermore he moves and puts his feet down near-flawlessly and walks and carries himself in an utterly fluid fashion.
He's a good one...but he's had his issues in the breeding shed. He's certainly able to participate in the breeding process...but sometimes he's been known to just take the day (or 2 or 3) off...for no apparent reason.
Hopefully his move to Ky will suit him just fine...and his willingness and ability to cover and impregnate a larger book may change for the better.
Respectfully
You're right BJ he is small 
I have seen him in person. But I have seen many of his foals all different sizes, most all having nice legs. So I am thinking he doesn't stamp his foals as much as the mares do. My mare throws very tall, correct and pretty babies. Thanks for the imput but I'm not worried.
I have seen him in person. But I have seen many of his foals all different sizes, most all having nice legs. So I am thinking he doesn't stamp his foals as much as the mares do. My mare throws very tall, correct and pretty babies. Thanks for the imput but I'm not worried.From today's Bloodhorse about 'So Long Birdie'
*So Long Birdie, unlike his distinguished family members, came up the hard way. Hampered by a crooked leg and other physical issues, So Long Birdie began his career in a claiming race.*
So much about breeding, lol. It used to be 'understood' that good breeding also meant good conformation, but this apparently only holds true for Warmbloods which have to be approved by inspection before getting a breeding liscense.
With race horses, it's all about money, although as of late, a few people have put fame before fortune because they stand at the end trail of their life and don't need the money any more, lol.
While a horse is not a car or boat, I think athletic ability or the prediction thereof is primarily based on biomechanical 'aptitude.' It would, however, be foolish to think that JUST because a horse [or human for that matter] has the physique which promises to be athletic and apt for greatness, that the end result will be the same as the hopes and expectations. Horse racing has the reputation of just being that: a horse race, lol.
Because horses [an humans] are NOT machines, they have the ability to 'adjust' or 'compensate.' A pedigree is merely an accumulation of recorded facts and proof of parenthood by way of registration.
When you reflect on all those things which have to be 'right' for any given horse to make it to the top and stay there, it is no surprise at all that only a few, comparatively speaking, make it up there.
Along with the obvious comes location, ownerhip, prejudices, salesmanship, trainers, etc, and a whole lot of sheer luck.
AS a small and somewhat idealistic amateur breeder, I have to be picky in almost all aspects. Yet, as soon as I sell a horse, I loose total control of all my doings and efforts, so networking and getting the horse[s] sold to the 'right' people and places is not a small part of the game.
I know too little about the inroads of this game to make any sweeping statements as to crookedness/unsoundness and straightness/soundness.
Ideally, there would be a strong correlation, but that doesn't appear to be a given.
What I do think is that there are those levels of racing and breeding where crookedness matters little as long as the $$s are correct, and this appears to transfer to the breeding shed. No one volunteers to disclose any defects; rather, only the positive is stressed and exhibited.
I have what I consider a fairly nicely bred mare which might even have some commercial appeal if I could ever afford to breed her to the appropriate stallion. This little mare which I bought site unseen, had suffered a slab fracture in her left knee very early in her racing career. I was even told that it happend to her twice, but having raced only twice, that would be really questionable or impossible.
The mare is 'off' center on this leg and I was unable to tell whether this was caused by the injury to her leg or that the injury occurred because she was crooked in that leg to begin with. Sometimes, crookedness is NOT genetic and thus will not be passed on in the offspring.
Well, I bred her to a stallion I knew was both correct and had retired sound [stakes races], and again the following year, bred her to another stallion I was told was very correct in his conformation. The results so far are that both babies were born with perfecty straight and well conformed front legs and promised to stay that way. I breathed a little easier after that as I do not like crooked legs on a horse, in particular not breeding stock.
Having all the necessary inside information on any breeding animal is vital, and while statistics are readily available, the details about any given horse in terms of physique and physical or mental problems are not.
I do believe it to be important to match mates physically as the results are most likely a lot more predictable. A stallion by definition is supposed to 'upgrade' his mares, so breeding to a Freshman stallion is taking additional risks, needless to say, but if you have a top notch mare and she is prepotent, if you can use this term with a mare, then some compromises may be feasable.
It will be interesting to see how the above horse, So Long Birdie, will hod up under advancing pressure.
Just my humble opinion,
SB
So much about breeding, lol. It used to be 'understood' that good breeding also meant good conformation, but this apparently only holds true for Warmbloods which have to be approved by inspection before getting a breeding liscense.
With race horses, it's all about money, although as of late, a few people have put fame before fortune because they stand at the end trail of their life and don't need the money any more, lol.
While a horse is not a car or boat, I think athletic ability or the prediction thereof is primarily based on biomechanical 'aptitude.' It would, however, be foolish to think that JUST because a horse [or human for that matter] has the physique which promises to be athletic and apt for greatness, that the end result will be the same as the hopes and expectations. Horse racing has the reputation of just being that: a horse race, lol.
Because horses [an humans] are NOT machines, they have the ability to 'adjust' or 'compensate.' A pedigree is merely an accumulation of recorded facts and proof of parenthood by way of registration.
When you reflect on all those things which have to be 'right' for any given horse to make it to the top and stay there, it is no surprise at all that only a few, comparatively speaking, make it up there.
Along with the obvious comes location, ownerhip, prejudices, salesmanship, trainers, etc, and a whole lot of sheer luck.
AS a small and somewhat idealistic amateur breeder, I have to be picky in almost all aspects. Yet, as soon as I sell a horse, I loose total control of all my doings and efforts, so networking and getting the horse[s] sold to the 'right' people and places is not a small part of the game.
I know too little about the inroads of this game to make any sweeping statements as to crookedness/unsoundness and straightness/soundness.
Ideally, there would be a strong correlation, but that doesn't appear to be a given.
What I do think is that there are those levels of racing and breeding where crookedness matters little as long as the $$s are correct, and this appears to transfer to the breeding shed. No one volunteers to disclose any defects; rather, only the positive is stressed and exhibited.
I have what I consider a fairly nicely bred mare which might even have some commercial appeal if I could ever afford to breed her to the appropriate stallion. This little mare which I bought site unseen, had suffered a slab fracture in her left knee very early in her racing career. I was even told that it happend to her twice, but having raced only twice, that would be really questionable or impossible.
The mare is 'off' center on this leg and I was unable to tell whether this was caused by the injury to her leg or that the injury occurred because she was crooked in that leg to begin with. Sometimes, crookedness is NOT genetic and thus will not be passed on in the offspring.
Well, I bred her to a stallion I knew was both correct and had retired sound [stakes races], and again the following year, bred her to another stallion I was told was very correct in his conformation. The results so far are that both babies were born with perfecty straight and well conformed front legs and promised to stay that way. I breathed a little easier after that as I do not like crooked legs on a horse, in particular not breeding stock.
Having all the necessary inside information on any breeding animal is vital, and while statistics are readily available, the details about any given horse in terms of physique and physical or mental problems are not.
I do believe it to be important to match mates physically as the results are most likely a lot more predictable. A stallion by definition is supposed to 'upgrade' his mares, so breeding to a Freshman stallion is taking additional risks, needless to say, but if you have a top notch mare and she is prepotent, if you can use this term with a mare, then some compromises may be feasable.
It will be interesting to see how the above horse, So Long Birdie, will hod up under advancing pressure.
Just my humble opinion,
SB
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
- Posts: 4451
- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:23 am
FOS & ALL: There are just too many horses out there that have legs going in all directions and they win. Maybe, not at the classic level, but they win. I believe that pedigree, on balance, is 60% plus more important. I study pedigrees and learn as much as I can. This board is particularly great for me because, for me, the numbers have got to add up before I put anything into operation. I think that there is some chance that a correct individual can make up for lack of pedigree, but to breed for a foal with lot's of bottom, you've got to have lot's of bottom in the pedigree. How many times have you heard a trainer, owner, or agent say, I can live with this fault. I believe that physical faults don't necessarily preclude athletic ability. I do stand on the proposition that heritage without athleticism is useless in a thoroughbred. Sincerely, Shammy
steve wrote:You're right BJ he is small
I have absolutely NO problem with small horses. Rather prefer them myself. But, at the sales, "small" translates to smaller ROI. I'd much prefer to breed to a small, well put together, talented, sound, well bred horse than a large, impressive looking horse that could barely be held together for 2-3 races a year (if that). Best of luck to you!