there are horses which bleed anyway, no matter how much lasix they get.
Lasix is an proven diuretic, what is an race enhacer by nature. Taking off 3% of bodyweight when giving 4 hrs prior to the race.
The last is the problem, everyone will try to use that stuff needing or not to keep an even level playing.
If I would ever look out from a horse out of the US, no consumers act is able to protect me, simply because the stuffff is in use in more than 95% of the population.
But as the american workouts are much more streneous, and faster than overhere, it will create it,s own problems
Interesting Lasix/Breeding stock observation made..
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BenB wrote:there are horses which bleed anyway, no matter how much lasix they get.
Lasix is an proven diuretic, what is an race enhacer by nature. Taking off 3% of bodyweight when giving 4 hrs prior to the race.
The last is the problem, everyone will try to use that stuff needing or not to keep an even level playing.
If I would ever look out from a horse out of the US, no consumers act is able to protect me, simply because the stuffff is in use in more than 95% of the population.
But as the american workouts are much more streneous, and faster than overhere, it will create it,s own problems
Hi Ben,
Yes, some horses do bleed through lasix...yet if they are able maintain a low level of bleeding they can possibly continue to race using proper precautions and extra time off between races...those that bleed through lasix at a stage 3-4 level, should be and usually are retired....this I will agree is not right and unfair to the horse. The horse is the number one concern and most will do what's right for their horse. That weight loss you mention is of course water weight....this induced semi dehydrated state by pulling the water and urination thickens the blood so as to slow the bloods velocity through the veins....which helps to prevent the bursting of blood vessels. By the way Ben, was that horse you referred to the same one we spoke of some time ago...who was I believe hitting his/her coronet bands? TJ
BenB wrote:Giving weight is bad enough, giving lenghts is an receipe for disater.
with lasix, horses are able to train and run faster, what ultimately will lead to injuries and breakdowns.
Hi Ben,
Truth is many horses race dull with lasix...but they never run any faster then they are capable of running. They are just able to race to their inherent ability without bleeding uncontrollably which of course will make them stop. TJ
TJ.
The last part of your reply says it all, some horses do need lasix to run.
They cannot run without. Times has been proven to be faster with lasix than without lasix.
The source keeps remaining the same, making money from horses that can not race without the stuff.
Beiing an diurectic gives a pressure on horses that are able to be competitive without, but owners are forced to use it, as it gives advantages.
Since I have bred,raised, owned and raced one I do know something about it.
The last part of your reply says it all, some horses do need lasix to run.
They cannot run without. Times has been proven to be faster with lasix than without lasix.
The source keeps remaining the same, making money from horses that can not race without the stuff.
Beiing an diurectic gives a pressure on horses that are able to be competitive without, but owners are forced to use it, as it gives advantages.
Since I have bred,raised, owned and raced one I do know something about it.
BenB wrote:TJ.
The last part of your reply says it all, some horses do need lasix to run.
They cannot run without. Times has been proven to be faster with lasix than without lasix.
The source keeps remaining the same, making money from horses that can not race without the stuff.
Beiing an diurectic gives a pressure on horses that are able to be competitive without, but owners are forced to use it, as it gives advantages.
Since I have bred,raised, owned and raced one I do know something about it.
Hi Ben,
Never said you don't know what you are talking about, and never will...we've always had decent conversations and we will continue I'm sure. As a licensed owner/trainer on the east coast I was around horse racing prior to the legalizing of lasix in NY. NY was the last holdout....but during that time....pre lasix...I have seen the suffering that many horses went through unnecessarily prior to it's legalization. It does serve a humane purpose in my opinion. I will say one more time, that lasix does not allow a horse to run any faster than he is capable of, it is not a stimulant in any way and too much lasix will actually dull a horse when he runs....It simply allows the horse to run to his ability without reaching a 3-4 level bleeder status in his lungs that will stop a horse in his tracks. I do agree with you....if your horse is still bleeding badly and running poorly with lasix....it's time to retire him and find him a good home to live out his days. TJ
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Patuxet
- Grade III Winner
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- Location: New England & Florida
Two trainers posted their thoughts on the "Paulick Report".
Their point of view based on their hands-on experience is hard to fault.
I'm an honest trainer. I haven't run on illegal drugs or abused legal medication. I have used Lasix on a minimal basis because the long term siide effects far outweigh the short term performance enhancing benefits. That said, I have no problem banning all raceday medication for the betterment of our sport (perceived or otherwise), and for our racehorses whom I love. Further, we must create a fair playing field so only the best go to our breeding sheds. We have just been informed by the RMTC that a powerful morphine derived drug, Dermorphin, is widespread in our racing industry. I simply can't compete against these cheaters no matter how good I am with my horses, how hard I work, or how talented my horses is. I lost 2 amazing owners because they were sick of the corruption and although they didn't mind losing they could not accept losing to cheaters. My story is similar to hundreds of owners/trainers across the country.
Your right, about 99% of the horses do not need lasix. I have trained horses for 30 years. I took all my horses (25) off lasix this year and I am having as good if not better average than before. A trainer needs to take the time to understand why horses bleed and then be more preventative with reguards to feeding each horse they train. I found the most important thing I did when I took everyone off lasix was take them off prerace medications also, ex. bute, banimine, ketaphin and cortizones. These medications help cause a horse to bleed. Don't enter your horse until you have him sound and happy, then stay away from premeds. and you don't need lasix.
Their point of view based on their hands-on experience is hard to fault.
I'm an honest trainer. I haven't run on illegal drugs or abused legal medication. I have used Lasix on a minimal basis because the long term siide effects far outweigh the short term performance enhancing benefits. That said, I have no problem banning all raceday medication for the betterment of our sport (perceived or otherwise), and for our racehorses whom I love. Further, we must create a fair playing field so only the best go to our breeding sheds. We have just been informed by the RMTC that a powerful morphine derived drug, Dermorphin, is widespread in our racing industry. I simply can't compete against these cheaters no matter how good I am with my horses, how hard I work, or how talented my horses is. I lost 2 amazing owners because they were sick of the corruption and although they didn't mind losing they could not accept losing to cheaters. My story is similar to hundreds of owners/trainers across the country.
Your right, about 99% of the horses do not need lasix. I have trained horses for 30 years. I took all my horses (25) off lasix this year and I am having as good if not better average than before. A trainer needs to take the time to understand why horses bleed and then be more preventative with reguards to feeding each horse they train. I found the most important thing I did when I took everyone off lasix was take them off prerace medications also, ex. bute, banimine, ketaphin and cortizones. These medications help cause a horse to bleed. Don't enter your horse until you have him sound and happy, then stay away from premeds. and you don't need lasix.
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V
Patuxet wrote:Two trainers posted their thoughts on the "Paulick Report".
Their point of view based on their hands-on experience is hard to fault.
I'm an honest trainer. I haven't run on illegal drugs or abused legal medication. I have used Lasix on a minimal basis because the long term siide effects far outweigh the short term performance enhancing benefits. That said, I have no problem banning all raceday medication for the betterment of our sport (perceived or otherwise), and for our racehorses whom I love. Further, we must create a fair playing field so only the best go to our breeding sheds. We have just been informed by the RMTC that a powerful morphine derived drug, Dermorphin, is widespread in our racing industry. I simply can't compete against these cheaters no matter how good I am with my horses, how hard I work, or how talented my horses is. I lost 2 amazing owners because they were sick of the corruption and although they didn't mind losing they could not accept losing to cheaters. My story is similar to hundreds of owners/trainers across the country.
Your right, about 99% of the horses do not need lasix. I have trained horses for 30 years. I took all my horses (25) off lasix this year and I am having as good if not better average than before. A trainer needs to take the time to understand why horses bleed and then be more preventative with reguards to feeding each horse they train. I found the most important thing I did when I took everyone off lasix was take them off prerace medications also, ex. bute, banimine, ketaphin and cortizones. These medications help cause a horse to bleed. Don't enter your horse until you have him sound and happy, then stay away from premeds. and you don't need lasix.
Hi Patuxet,
If you could, I would like to know the name of this trainer and the name of the two good owners he lost. He doesn't seem to be very knowledgeable when he says 99% of horses don't bleed....he/she is totally wrong. They all bleed just so long as they are really trying....it's just the degree at which they bleed that varies. I do agree that there is much that can be done to prevent a bleeder from getting worse and just as much can be done other than lasix to stop a bleeder...but Lasix serves a purpose to the perfect end, along with a score of other precautions taken by any trainer that has a clue. He also cites another example of a drug that is never going to go undetected at a major racetrack. Dermorphin an opiate based drug...was recently detected at these tracks since they just updated their testing program. The Dermorhin positives found in ten horses in Louisiana included a mix of Quarter Horses and Thoroughbreds, racing at Delta Downs, Evangeline Downs, and Louisiana Downs. Many more positives are expected to be found. TJ
BTW, Iam an licenced owner/trainer myself.
There is one remark to make in the drf story, maybe medication is worsening the problem, I do not have had any experience with that, but inheritance does. Training them up to their capabilities is also worsening the case.
And at last, the cases I have seen were only horses that were nerveous, fast washed out types, most of them a little bit flighty, and all were getting the problem after their 3 yr old campaign.
There is one remark to make in the drf story, maybe medication is worsening the problem, I do not have had any experience with that, but inheritance does. Training them up to their capabilities is also worsening the case.
And at last, the cases I have seen were only horses that were nerveous, fast washed out types, most of them a little bit flighty, and all were getting the problem after their 3 yr old campaign.
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Patuxet
- Grade III Winner
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:36 pm
- Location: New England & Florida
The Kentucky Horse Racing Commission’s hearing on race-day medication last November revealed that Lasix alkalinizes horses, elevating their racing TCO2 values.
The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix, according to the science presented at the K.H.R.C. race-day medication hearing. Lasix alkalinizes horses, creating a competitive metabolic advantage similar to milkshaking, rendering the drug Lasix a clear and present doping agent. Human athletic regulators have deemed Lasix a doping agent, and horseracing regulators will eventually have to come to that appropriate conclusion. Lasix has significant potential to alter and enhance racehorse performance.
Read the rest here: http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2012...
The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix, according to the science presented at the K.H.R.C. race-day medication hearing. Lasix alkalinizes horses, creating a competitive metabolic advantage similar to milkshaking, rendering the drug Lasix a clear and present doping agent. Human athletic regulators have deemed Lasix a doping agent, and horseracing regulators will eventually have to come to that appropriate conclusion. Lasix has significant potential to alter and enhance racehorse performance.
Read the rest here: http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2012...
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V
Patuxet wrote:The Kentucky Horse Racing Commission’s hearing on race-day medication last November revealed that Lasix alkalinizes horses, elevating their racing TCO2 values.
The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix, according to the science presented at the K.H.R.C. race-day medication hearing. Lasix alkalinizes horses, creating a competitive metabolic advantage similar to milkshaking, rendering the drug Lasix a clear and present doping agent. Human athletic regulators have deemed Lasix a doping agent, and horseracing regulators will eventually have to come to that appropriate conclusion. Lasix has significant potential to alter and enhance racehorse performance.
Read the rest here: http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2012...
Hi Patuxet,
There are so many other reasons for that natural body function as well, simply withholding water will raise the TCO2 level of a horse, it occurs naturally due to the dehydration process in the body. A quick aside, European trainers are aware of this with their severe bleeders and since they can't race on lasix the night before a race they begin limiting the water given to their horse....morning of the race they give them no water at all. This is why wise trainers know thier horses TCO2 levels after administering lasix. In this way you won't get a positive due to administering a legal medication to your horse. Think about it, if lasix alone raised a horses TCO2 level over the legal limit, it would stand to reason that since almost all horses race on Furosemide here in America, we should be getting many, many more times the TCO2 level positives then we currently have. I think they are curving this study to their advantage since KY will be the first to ban lasix. Personally I certainly can't buy it with the limited amount of positives that are out there for TCO2 level overages. The good old NY Times Journal of Veterinarian Medicine. TJ