Full Brothers At Stud: Opinions Please

[Spain]

Sir Gallahad and Bull Dog are two full brothers at stud that both did very well.

[Pete]

Hi FOS,

Good to see you

I've only seen Alex on TV and Max in the post parade for a NYRA stakes race so I won't comment on them physically. Just off the sales prices I don't see either as having significant flaws but I'd like to see them in person.

Conformation in a stallion is very important to me but race record is paramount since it's the complete expression of the physical, athletic and mental aspects of the horse. I've said many times that I REALLY like a powerful pedigree in a new stallion but that I don't consider it to be a major factor in the success of stallions past its' impact on getting quality mares and a good start at stud.

An exception where pedigree becomes more important is in the case of full brothers.

Afleet Alex and Unforgettable Max are interesting. They're each other's confirming black type and Alex (of course) and Max have legitimate reasons to be at stud. I would like Max less if his FULL brother weren't Alex and perhaps oddly to some, I like Alex's chances less because of Max. Just to mention another full brother pair, Our Emblem and Miner's mark, both badly handled at stud, but the lesser racing full brother is the better sire.

Historically, stallions that are decidely better than siblings (full or 1/2), do better than others with the exception of full brothers. Natalma produced 8 black type runners and 4 stakes winners. All of her foals were treated as special and had ample opportunity but only Northern Dancer was as a race horse and later in the breeding shed. His brothers were forgettable at stud. Top stallions sometimes have quality sisters, but there's a tendencey for 1/2 brothers who were special race horses to underperform expectations at stud like With Approval and Touch Gold. Both have had some success but neither appears to be a special stallion despite pedigree and performance.

I'm expecting Afleet Alex to stand for @$50,000 - $60,000. I'll keep a close eye on Unforgettable Max's foals and may well be recommending him in the coming seasons.

Regards,

Pete

[Pete]

Hi Spain,

An excellent example - thanks. Their dam, PLucky Liege, is one of the most important mares in history.

In addition to Bull Dog and Sir Gallahad, Plucky Liege produced Bois Roussel and Admiral Drake. All four are designated as chef-de-races. She also produced Bel Athel and Quatre Bras who were serviceable stallions.

From a North American perspective Plucky Liege's matings with Teddy are her most influential with Sir Gallahad, Bull Dog, Quatre Bras and their sisters Marguerite De Valois and Noor Jahan.

The Teddy sire line was prominent and appeared to be vital right through the mid 1950's but quickly fell in influence as (especially) Bull Lea and Roman didn't sire influential sons. Teddy sire line is hanging by a thread now through Damascus (to Teddy through Sword Damcer/Sunglow/Sun Again/Sun Teddy).

Regards,

Pete

[Derring]

I would also especially like to know if there has ever been an occurance where a full brother assumed stud duties upon the death of his sibling and was equally or even more successful.

Thank you everyone. This info will really help with some research I'm doing right now.

Laurie

Old Trieste(died) and his full brother New Trieste. NT's first crop are weanlings this year but he is worth watching. He's stamping his babies in his image. Big chestnuts with white markings.

[ZiaLand]

ONLY in full brothers do we see a pattern of the lesser brother outperforming the better brother at stud. Not For Love / Rhythm, Saint Ballado / Devil's Bag and Vice Regent / Viceregal as examples. All three lesser brothers were the stallions that their full siblings were supposed to be.

Thanks, Pete, this was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I'm considering a stallion based on the legacy of his late, full brother but my reservations were that the race record isn't nearly as impressive on the second brother.

Thanks everyone for your input on full brothers at stud.

Also, just to respond to the "breed to the sire" theory....my thought was who would you rather have bred a mare to: Mr. Prospector or Raise A Native? Storm Cat or Storm Bird? (Although, I realize that these decisions are much easier to make when you already know what the son is capable of producing.)

Laurie

[skeenan]

ONLY in full brothers do we see a pattern of the lesser brother outperforming the better brother at stud. Not For Love / Rhythm, Saint Ballado / Devil's Bag and Vice Regent / Viceregal as examples. All three lesser brothers were the stallions that their full siblings were supposed to be.

I will be interested to see how Spanish Steps does, then, considering everyone's somewhat poor opinion of him (in an old post, where I had asked)... interesting!

[BenB]

Saddlers Wells Fairy King and Tate Gallery, Saddlers Wells received only
the top of the cream, and the others got from what was left over.
That,s the reason Fairy King something speedier stats.
Diesis Kris and Keen. Diesis did bettter at the long run than Kris, leaving
out Keen.

[parlo]

Just a little contribution:

Danehill and Eagle Eyed (according to the data base now sire in Turkey);

Acatenango (multiple G1-winner and German champion-sire with even some international reputation) and Arado (LR-winner and according to the data base now sire in Danmark).


Pharos and Fairway were full brothers.

Refering to Sadler's Wells, Fairy King and Tate Gallery: as Special and Thong deliver so much impact to international breeding, how important is the maternal contribution to this success?

[louis finochio]

Bull Dog (FR) dk.b H 1927 was a full brother to Sir Gallahad III and was imported by AB Bull Hancock of Clairbourne Farm in Ky. Ray Bell the grandfather of trainer Ray Bell arranged for the importation of both Bull Dog and Sir Gallahad III.

Bull Dog was by Teddy---Plucky Liege, by Spearmint. Bull Dog started 8 times won 2 races and placed once, and had earnings of 7,802.

Bull Dog sired 52 SW. BD was the leading sire in 1943, and leading BMS of 1953, 54, and 56. BD was the BMS of Tom Tool, Decathlon, Dark Star, and Rough'n Tumble. Bull Dog died in 1954.

[xfactor fan]

Bold Ruler and Independence, full brothers with success in very different types of races.

There were a couple of other full brothers to these two, but have no idea of what they ever did either on the race track or at stud.

[FOS]

hi guys

It'll be interesting to see how the full-brothers...Giant's Causeway... Tumblebrutus...Freud... Roar of the Tiger...and any other Storm Cat colts that come out of Mariah's Storm, fare...

...over the long haul.

Respectfully

[Keith]

Full Brothers

Unbridled and Cahill Road
Giant's Cauesway, Freud,Tumblerutus, and Roar of The Tiger
The Minstrel and Far North
Bold Ruler, Independence, and Nasco
Nasrullah and Nizami II
Swynford and Harry of Hereford
Stockwell and Rataplan
Hill Prince and Third Brother
Royal Charger, Naval Prince, and Madara
Devil's Bag and Saint Ballado
Blue Larkspur, Balmy Spring, Boss Hoss, and Brother Joe
Bull Lea and Dogpatch
Bull Dog, Sir Gallahad III, and Quatre Bras II
Dr. Fager and Highbinder
Pharos, Fairway,and St. Andrews
Pharamond II, Sickle, and Salamis
Lt. Stevens and Ridan
Apalachee, Brahms,and Indian
Afleet Alex and Unforgettable Max
Man O War, My Play, and Playfellow
Northern Dancer, Northern Ace, and Northern Native
Native Dancer and Face East
Gallant Fox, Fighting Fox, and Foxbrough
Mr. Prospector, Kentucky Gold, Search For Gold,Red Ryder,&Vaal Reef


Keith

[ZiaLand]

Just stumbled on this one while doing some research.

Majestic Prince and Crowned Prince (Raise A Native x Gay Hostess)

Both were stakes winners althought Majestic Prince was the much better known one, of course. Crowned Prince was actually a Champion 2YO colt in England before being sent to Japan. I believe they were the only two major stakes winners that Gay Hostess produced. Both sired stakes horses.

And I know of at least one instance where they were present on both sides of a pedigree in a stakes horse.

Interesting.....

I'm very curious: Does anyone happen to have a mare with Crowned Prince in their pedigree?

Laurie

[Retrospectiv]

hi guys

It'll be interesting to see how the full-brothers...Giant's Causeway... Tumblebrutus...Freud... Roar of the Tiger...and any other Storm Cat colts that come out of Mariah's Storm, fare...

...over the long haul.

Respectfully

Ah, you beat me to those four.
It will be interesting to follow their stud careers, but they'll be pretty hard to compare really when you consider the difference in mares they'll be receiving each. Obviously GC has the cream of the crop...Freud and Roar of the Tiger in the regional markets will get probably decent to average mares at best. I noticed that Tumblebrutus, as the 'other brother' in Ky only received 19 mares, compared to GC's 215, Freud's 133 and ROTT's 123.

Miner's Mark and Our Emblem were already mentioned, but the other two fulls in that family were not, Proud and True and Traditionally. P&T has had nothing of note, and Traditionally is still young in his career yet. Interesting that he's the oddball chestnut of the bunch.

[austique]

Tumblebrutus has been shipped to South America and will not be back. He had some issues in the breeding shed which led the stallion manager at Walmac to refer to him as a "jack**".