Personally, I'd go with Gone West if I had the mare & the money.
Too bad St. Ballado & Kris S. are gone.
Who is the leading sire of sires today?
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fastappy
- Starters Handicap
- Posts: 587
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- Location: Northern California
Sire of Sires
Can someone please check with Japan, I'm sure they bought just about every top sire prospect we had, with the exception of a handful.
Personally, I'd go with Gone West if I had the mare & the money.
Too bad St. Ballado & Kris S. are gone.
Personally, I'd go with Gone West if I had the mare & the money.
Too bad St. Ballado & Kris S. are gone.
Prospector is dead as well, but you seemed to have missed the point of the question. Pick a sire that will produce a sire. Slew had a lousy track record for producing sires except for a handful of regional sires and AP Indy. By the same token, you could have picked Alydar ... and he also sucked for getting bigtime sires.
No I totally understood the question...Seattle Slew is a sire of sires along with being a broodmare sire along with being a grandsire of sires....as far as I'm concerned he has been the BEST producing sires EVER along with Northern Dancer ! JMHO
SADLER'S WELLS is also to me one of the best. All I was saying was If I took the mares I already have and if they were the quality the OP was talking about they would be excellent NICKS for producing sires that produce...ever read the book X FACTOR?
Personally, I'd go with Gone West if I had the mare & the money.
Another favorite of mine
I try not to listen to the voices in my head.
But sometimes they have such good ideas
But sometimes they have such good ideas
Here is an article on SEATTLE SLEW as a producer.....and yes I would agree he was a much better broodmare sire...I just love Seattle Slew and Northern Dancer lines.
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/re ... eattleslew
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/re ... eattleslew
I try not to listen to the voices in my head.
But sometimes they have such good ideas
But sometimes they have such good ideas
Nijinsky wrote:Seattle Slew is a sire of sires
In your opinion. Most of the industry would disagree with you, especially in light of the fact that most of his sons stand outside of Kentucky and with the exception of AP Indy, the KY sons aren't all that hot.
He made good regional sires. That's about it. He certainly was no Prospector/Gone West where you have multiple high class KY/champion sires steming from one sire. Compared to Prospector, how many sons of Slew ever broke the $100k stud fee range? Indy's the only one I can think of.
Yeah sorry but Storm Cat doesn't strike me as sire of sires yet. I mean his sons as sires are a dime a dozen and what do you get from that? Usually nothing with a few exceptions that are still new-ish. AP Indy has Pulpit, Stephen Got Even, and Malibu Moon for example but given the number of high end mares that give us blue bood colts by him, really it's kinda mediocre. I mean think about it, what are the odds that his line will eventually peter out as a sireline if we leave it to those 3 stallions or any of the newer ones? There's potential but still, I don't see long range breed implications yet.
Can we talk about that as a criteria? I mean some sirelines eventually fade away so are they much of a sire of sires if it ceases to exist after a few generations? I figure we're talking prediction of staying power of the line. Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer have established that so we have to see into the future and figure out who's actually gonna show up in the sireline in future pedigree analysis. Not just that they have sons that are getting stakes winners. Cuz if it dies there, that's a pathetic statement to their potency.
Can we talk about that as a criteria? I mean some sirelines eventually fade away so are they much of a sire of sires if it ceases to exist after a few generations? I figure we're talking prediction of staying power of the line. Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer have established that so we have to see into the future and figure out who's actually gonna show up in the sireline in future pedigree analysis. Not just that they have sons that are getting stakes winners. Cuz if it dies there, that's a pathetic statement to their potency.
Read the article Sam you just might learn something.
Grant it he may not be the best around the world...but I find him to be very influential on top (sire) and bottom (dam) for the Ca. market....more so than any other sire of sires here. We have only had a few Mr. Prospector sires do well HERE, that I know of, Native Prospector, Rhythm, Latin American, Strike Gold. Not even close to SEATTLE SLEW sires. And I can think of NO other, sire of sires that has done as well here in Ca.
Since I personally will probably never breed outside of Ca. since i wouldn't have the heart to send a mare with a foal that far. He did pretty well as a sire of sires for Ca. I am sure I missed a few
SLEWPY
AVENUE OF FLAGS
GENERAL MEETING
SLEWVESCENT
HOUSTON
SLEWLEDO in Wash.
And maybe if bred to the right mares and enough THISNEARLYWASMINE to be the next grandson
Grant it he may not be the best around the world...but I find him to be very influential on top (sire) and bottom (dam) for the Ca. market....more so than any other sire of sires here. We have only had a few Mr. Prospector sires do well HERE, that I know of, Native Prospector, Rhythm, Latin American, Strike Gold. Not even close to SEATTLE SLEW sires. And I can think of NO other, sire of sires that has done as well here in Ca.
Since I personally will probably never breed outside of Ca. since i wouldn't have the heart to send a mare with a foal that far. He did pretty well as a sire of sires for Ca. I am sure I missed a few
SLEWPY
AVENUE OF FLAGS
GENERAL MEETING
SLEWVESCENT
HOUSTON
SLEWLEDO in Wash.
And maybe if bred to the right mares and enough THISNEARLYWASMINE to be the next grandson
Last edited by Nijinsky on Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
I try not to listen to the voices in my head.
But sometimes they have such good ideas
But sometimes they have such good ideas
A PIECE FROM THE ARTICLE......
" As Table 1 shows, Seattle Slew achieved greatness as a stallion as well. Although Slew is not as consistent a sire as some, his percentage of horses of the highest class-group and graded stakes winners-has lifted his stud career above that of almost all of his contemporaries.
Although Seattle Slew early on developed a reputation for siring a relatively high percentage of gawky, overgrown, coarse individuals, he sired two champions in his first crop and has continued to produce championship-quality individuals throughout his career.
The ill-starred filly Landaluce (out of Strip Poker, by Bold Bidder) was the first horse to make it obvious that Seattle Slew would be an important sire. That same crop included his first champion son, Slew o' Gold (out of Alluvial, by Buckpasser). Slew o' Gold made a great start at stud, with 1989 European highweight Golden Opinion, and Grade 1 winners Awe Inspiring and Gorgeous in his first crop, and classic-placed Thirty Six Red in his second. He has not followed up in later crops, however, and, though he occasionally sires a top-class runner, his offspring have a justified reputation for soundness problems.
Slew o' Gold's best son, Awe Inspiring, has been far less successful at stud in Japan than his name, his outstanding pedigree, and his excellent race record promised. Awe Inspiring's death at age seven in 1993 did not prove much of a loss to Japanese breeders since he failed to sire any stakes winners from 158 foals.
Second-best son of Seattle Slew's first crop was Slewpy (Rare Bouquet, by Prince John), a Grade 1 winner at two and three despite marked inconsistency as a racehorse. Slewpy has also been an inconsistent sire, getting 27 stakes winners, a 4.8% strike rate. Slewpy's best son, Thirty Slews, was gelded, and his second-best, Mr. Nickerson, died on the racetrack. Slerp, his only significant son to stand at stud, has failed in California.
Best sire from Seattle Slew's first crop, however, was probably Slewacide, who made extraordinary use of the poor opportunity available to him in Oklahoma. Bred on the same cross as Slew o' Gold (out of Evasive, by Buckpasser), Slewacide raced only once, finishing third, but he has sired 43 stakes winners (6.9%), including Grade 1 winners Clever Trevor and Slew of Damascus. Unfortunately, all four of Slewacide's graded stakes-winning sons are geldings, putting an immediate halt to what could have been a highly successful branch of the Seattle Slew male line.
Unlucky sire of sires
In truth, Seattle Slew's career as a sire of sires (Table 2) has been dogged by persistent bad luck. His best second-crop son (and perhaps his best son of all), Swale (Tuerta, by *Forli), died two weeks after adding a win in the 1984 Belmont Stakes to his Kentucky Derby victory. His second-best son of that crop, Seattle Song (Incantation, by Prince Blessed), died young, and the latter's best son, Group 1 winner Cudas, died at four. "........
To read more click here
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/re ... eattleslew
" As Table 1 shows, Seattle Slew achieved greatness as a stallion as well. Although Slew is not as consistent a sire as some, his percentage of horses of the highest class-group and graded stakes winners-has lifted his stud career above that of almost all of his contemporaries.
Although Seattle Slew early on developed a reputation for siring a relatively high percentage of gawky, overgrown, coarse individuals, he sired two champions in his first crop and has continued to produce championship-quality individuals throughout his career.
The ill-starred filly Landaluce (out of Strip Poker, by Bold Bidder) was the first horse to make it obvious that Seattle Slew would be an important sire. That same crop included his first champion son, Slew o' Gold (out of Alluvial, by Buckpasser). Slew o' Gold made a great start at stud, with 1989 European highweight Golden Opinion, and Grade 1 winners Awe Inspiring and Gorgeous in his first crop, and classic-placed Thirty Six Red in his second. He has not followed up in later crops, however, and, though he occasionally sires a top-class runner, his offspring have a justified reputation for soundness problems.
Slew o' Gold's best son, Awe Inspiring, has been far less successful at stud in Japan than his name, his outstanding pedigree, and his excellent race record promised. Awe Inspiring's death at age seven in 1993 did not prove much of a loss to Japanese breeders since he failed to sire any stakes winners from 158 foals.
Second-best son of Seattle Slew's first crop was Slewpy (Rare Bouquet, by Prince John), a Grade 1 winner at two and three despite marked inconsistency as a racehorse. Slewpy has also been an inconsistent sire, getting 27 stakes winners, a 4.8% strike rate. Slewpy's best son, Thirty Slews, was gelded, and his second-best, Mr. Nickerson, died on the racetrack. Slerp, his only significant son to stand at stud, has failed in California.
Best sire from Seattle Slew's first crop, however, was probably Slewacide, who made extraordinary use of the poor opportunity available to him in Oklahoma. Bred on the same cross as Slew o' Gold (out of Evasive, by Buckpasser), Slewacide raced only once, finishing third, but he has sired 43 stakes winners (6.9%), including Grade 1 winners Clever Trevor and Slew of Damascus. Unfortunately, all four of Slewacide's graded stakes-winning sons are geldings, putting an immediate halt to what could have been a highly successful branch of the Seattle Slew male line.
Unlucky sire of sires
In truth, Seattle Slew's career as a sire of sires (Table 2) has been dogged by persistent bad luck. His best second-crop son (and perhaps his best son of all), Swale (Tuerta, by *Forli), died two weeks after adding a win in the 1984 Belmont Stakes to his Kentucky Derby victory. His second-best son of that crop, Seattle Song (Incantation, by Prince Blessed), died young, and the latter's best son, Group 1 winner Cudas, died at four. "........
To read more click here
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/re ... eattleslew
I try not to listen to the voices in my head.
But sometimes they have such good ideas
But sometimes they have such good ideas
Nijinsky wrote:Read the article Sam you just might learn something.
I did read the article, long before you posted the link here. I still have the hardcopy of that particular issue. It does nothing to contradict my opinion (and that of many others -- including the writer of that article) that Slew was a mediocre sire of sires. All of the sires you named acheived most of their success OUTSIDE of Kentucky. Excluding Capote and AP Indy, Slew had very little success getting "Name" sires.
No one is disputing that Slew was an excellent sire of RACEHORSES. However, that was NOT the question. The question was who are the best sires of sires and Slew is woefully short of earning that accolade.
I guess this needs repeating for you. This is my OPINION for ME that is what the OP asked. I never said he was the best all around sire of sires ever...I said I PERSONALLY liked him and NORTHERN DANCER....SADLER'S WELLS....GONE WEST.....MR. PROSPECTOR etc. No other sire of sires has done as well as SEATTLE SLEW in Ca. And since I live and breed in Ca. this was my responce..... I still like him even outside Ca.
Pick on someone else, too bad you have so much power . Power corrupts....ABSOLUTE power......corrupts ABSOLUTLY!
Grant it he may not be the best around the world...but I find him to be very influential on top (sire) and bottom (dam) for the Ca. market....more so than any other sire of sires here. We have only had a few Mr. Prospector sires do well HERE, that I know of, Native Prospector, Rhythm, Latin American, Strike Gold. Not even close to SEATTLE SLEW sires. And I can think of NO other, sire of sires that has done as well here in Ca.
Since I personally will probably never breed outside of Ca. since i wouldn't have the heart to send a mare with a foal that far. He did pretty well as a sire of sires for Ca. I am sure I missed a few
SLEWPY
AVENUE OF FLAGS
GENERAL MEETING
SLEWVESCENT
HOUSTON
SLEWLEDO in Wash.
And maybe if bred to the right mares and enough THISNEARLYWASMINE to be the next grandson.
_________________
Pick on someone else, too bad you have so much power
. Power corrupts....ABSOLUTE power......corrupts ABSOLUTLY!
Grant it he may not be the best around the world...but I find him to be very influential on top (sire) and bottom (dam) for the Ca. market....more so than any other sire of sires here. We have only had a few Mr. Prospector sires do well HERE, that I know of, Native Prospector, Rhythm, Latin American, Strike Gold. Not even close to SEATTLE SLEW sires. And I can think of NO other, sire of sires that has done as well here in Ca.
Since I personally will probably never breed outside of Ca. since i wouldn't have the heart to send a mare with a foal that far. He did pretty well as a sire of sires for Ca. I am sure I missed a few
SLEWPY
AVENUE OF FLAGS
GENERAL MEETING
SLEWVESCENT
HOUSTON
SLEWLEDO in Wash.
And maybe if bred to the right mares and enough THISNEARLYWASMINE to be the next grandson.
_________________
I try not to listen to the voices in my head.
But sometimes they have such good ideas
But sometimes they have such good ideas
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
Intrinsic Worth wrote:If Sadler's Wells is such a good sire of sires, why was Montjeu such a surprise success to breeders (except in Australia and NZ.)
The market for young stallions is a fickle thing. Who would have thought that champion Cozzene, who started for a mere $5,000 with little notice, would have worked his way up the ladder to sire the champions and millionaires he did? Or Broad Brush, whose owner had to hand-pick nice mares to supplement his book and who dutifully sired 14% stakes winners in return? Or even Northern Dancer, who was written off as too little to sire The Big Horse? I would not say that success is the surprising thing for a young hot stallion, but rather not-failure.
The only other Sadler's Wells sire that I know of that is doing well is El Prado, and it took him a long time.
Take a look at Fort Wood in South Africa--29 graded stakes winners (not including listed) and counting, including four champions so far. You may have met one of them if you have been to KY recently (Horse Chestnut), and my namesake is another (Kimberley Mine). He had the same explosive start at stud as Montjeu.
Sadlers Wells also has some VERY well-bred stallion prospects in their first few years...Hawk Wing comes to mind...and it will be interesting to see how they do.
I already had to lock a thread today because it was deteriorating into a personal posting battle between two people. It appears that this thread is taking a similar path. It is not fair to the other posters to continually have to deal with this; it's frustrating, clogs up the thread, and even stops people from reading through (and weeding through) to find the useful information.
I will not address this issue again, publicly or privately. If you can't present your opinions without attacking another poster specifically, by name or by insinuation, you will not be welcome to post here any longer.
Enough said.
I will not address this issue again, publicly or privately. If you can't present your opinions without attacking another poster specifically, by name or by insinuation, you will not be welcome to post here any longer.
Enough said.
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
bonzer wrote:Sunday Silence because his level of domination isn't matched by any stallion in any part of the world.
It's really hard to get a read on him because so few of his foals made it out of Japan. I still don't think he would have been anything more than just another bay stallion had he stayed here in the states so going to Japan was the best thing for him at the time (and a major understatement now).
Even the sons aren't getting many that run outside of Japan so it's difficult to say how he measures up on a global scale.