Is she broodmare material?
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Laurierace
- Grade II Winner
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:14 am
I agree completely with what Sprucie says. Not only is it not fair to the mare, but most likely you are not going to get a decent foal anyway. Mares need to be able to put all their available resources into the foal. It seems they are unable to do that if they are in pain. I knew one mare who was an awesome competitor with a nice pedigree. She was a big gorgeous mare too. I think she had three foals before they stopped breeding her. All of them were little runty things that couldn't get out of their own way. It was so hard to believe that something so beautiful could produce something so average, but she was in too much pain to do the job right.
These are all very good points.
I have no intention on breeding a mare that is not at least pasture. I have not seen this horse in person,only on paper. So,I do not know how "off" she is. If she were very unsound and uncomfortable I certainly would not put her thru the torture of trying to carry a foal for 11 months.
She is a maiden and there is no guarantee that she would even be breeding sound.
Has anyone ever had experience breeding a mare with this condition?
If so, your experience and suggestions would be greatly appreciated if I decide to get this mare.
I would still like opinions on her bloodlines. I am not familiar with her family line. However,it looks like her sire,grandsire and damsire are all big moneymakers. Any opinions?
How marketable would her bloodlines be if I decided to sell her after one foal?
Assuming that she did stay sound enough throught the pregnancy and delivered a healthy foal.
Thanks to all who responded!
I have no intention on breeding a mare that is not at least pasture. I have not seen this horse in person,only on paper. So,I do not know how "off" she is. If she were very unsound and uncomfortable I certainly would not put her thru the torture of trying to carry a foal for 11 months.
She is a maiden and there is no guarantee that she would even be breeding sound.
Has anyone ever had experience breeding a mare with this condition?
If so, your experience and suggestions would be greatly appreciated if I decide to get this mare.
I would still like opinions on her bloodlines. I am not familiar with her family line. However,it looks like her sire,grandsire and damsire are all big moneymakers. Any opinions?
How marketable would her bloodlines be if I decided to sell her after one foal?
Assuming that she did stay sound enough throught the pregnancy and delivered a healthy foal.
Thanks to all who responded!
This mare is only six years old, and she is already lame enough to be unuseable in a lesson program. Navicular syndrome a pretty broad spectrum description, but I would be very uncomfortable about the fact that she is so lame, so young.
Pasture sound or not, this is a condition that often is passed on from generation to generation. Why take the chance of putting another horse on this earth that will break down as soon as her/his dam?
There are plenty of sound, healthy mares out there. My suggestion would be to pass on this mare, and look for one that will give you better odds on having a healthy, useful offspring.
No matter what the bloodlines, a navicular mare is not an easy sell.
Pasture sound or not, this is a condition that often is passed on from generation to generation. Why take the chance of putting another horse on this earth that will break down as soon as her/his dam?
There are plenty of sound, healthy mares out there. My suggestion would be to pass on this mare, and look for one that will give you better odds on having a healthy, useful offspring.
No matter what the bloodlines, a navicular mare is not an easy sell.
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Laurierace
- Grade II Winner
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:14 am
I noticed that too Laurierace! 
As I explained on COTH, this mare doesn't have anything to recommend her pedigree wise for commercial race breeding. She does have decent sporthorse bloodlines, but if she's not sound enough to carry the foal, you could consider ET. Of course, the foal will NOT be able to be registered with the JC, but most other breed associations do accept foals from ET. Now, you'll have to weigh the costs of ET versus the sale price of the future foal, plus take into account whether or not her navicular is caused by conformational issues. ET can run about $2500 per cycle, and it has a low success rate, so plan on 2-3 cycles (if you're lucky), and then the stud fees, mare care, vet fees, etc. Can you re-coup those costs with the sale of the foal?
As I explained on COTH, this mare doesn't have anything to recommend her pedigree wise for commercial race breeding. She does have decent sporthorse bloodlines, but if she's not sound enough to carry the foal, you could consider ET. Of course, the foal will NOT be able to be registered with the JC, but most other breed associations do accept foals from ET. Now, you'll have to weigh the costs of ET versus the sale price of the future foal, plus take into account whether or not her navicular is caused by conformational issues. ET can run about $2500 per cycle, and it has a low success rate, so plan on 2-3 cycles (if you're lucky), and then the stud fees, mare care, vet fees, etc. Can you re-coup those costs with the sale of the foal?
love it !!
I am so green it isn't even funny -but I am learning and love to read comments and information from people who do know and understand...Thanks to all
I can read between the lines a bit here and see that you have it in your head to breed her---excitement and all that---perhaps against your better judgement. You say that you have only seen her on paper. This is a good thing. You don't have the emotional attachment.
I'll repeat what others have said....it's not a good idea. This of course is not what you wanted to hear.
There are so many other good mares with good bloodines out there....perhaps you should pass on this one.
I'll repeat what others have said....it's not a good idea. This of course is not what you wanted to hear.
There are so many other good mares with good bloodines out there....perhaps you should pass on this one.
ISABELLA wrote:These are all very good points.
I have no intention on breeding a mare that is not at least pasture. I have not seen this horse in person,only on paper. So,I do not know how "off" she is. If she were very unsound and uncomfortable I certainly would not put her thru the torture of trying to carry a foal for 11 months.
She is a maiden and there is no guarantee that she would even be breeding sound.
Has anyone ever had experience breeding a mare with this condition?
If so, your experience and suggestions would be greatly appreciated if I decide to get this mare.
I would still like opinions on her bloodlines. I am not familiar with her family line. However,it looks like her sire,grandsire and damsire are all big moneymakers. Any opinions?
How marketable would her bloodlines be if I decided to sell her after one foal?
Assuming that she did stay sound enough throught the pregnancy and delivered a healthy foal.
Thanks to all who responded!
I am not sure why a simple question about a mares bloodlines has turned into a debate about breeding a lame horse and a personal attack!
I asked the question about breeding a mare with navicular on another forum to get a broader range of responses and experiences. That is all.
If I did get this mare it would be a decision my vet and I would have to make as to wether or not she has a managable case of navicular caused by bad trimming or overuse and would be sound enough to breed. If she did have a true case of navicular I certainly would not breed her and produce a foal with the same ailments!
I consider myself to be an experienced and loving horseperson and only asked a simple question about this mares pedigree to a group of individuals who would have more knowledge of her lines than I do.
I thank those of you who responded honestly and without judegment.
I asked the question about breeding a mare with navicular on another forum to get a broader range of responses and experiences. That is all.
If I did get this mare it would be a decision my vet and I would have to make as to wether or not she has a managable case of navicular caused by bad trimming or overuse and would be sound enough to breed. If she did have a true case of navicular I certainly would not breed her and produce a foal with the same ailments!
I consider myself to be an experienced and loving horseperson and only asked a simple question about this mares pedigree to a group of individuals who would have more knowledge of her lines than I do.
I thank those of you who responded honestly and without judegment.
You asked:
And above it was pointed out that:
For the 'marketing' of a registered thoroughbred foal - (ASIDE: IS that what you have in mind? Frankly, it's hard to tell from your posts if you have a definite goal in mind when considering this mare OR simply, as Derring points out above, have it in your head to get this mare and are seeking various input on what to do with her once you act on your desire)...........Anway - as I was saying: For the 'marketing' of a registered thoroughbred foal for the racing world - as an embryo thru weanling thru yearling the importance of the foal having a decent catalog page, i.e. a family with history of black type performers under the first - third dams can not be overstated.
Even the very best of sires can not and are not expected to overcome mares whose capacity for delivering talented offspring has become an historical footnote in their pedigrees. That's why you have to nominate your mares, even your really good mares, to these stallions and nominate early in hopes of being selected - then you get the honor of paying a huge price to see the lucky boy. IF you don't believe that stallion managers - at least those that manage top stallions - are picky about who they breed Mr. So And So to just call up or e-mail a couple of the farms whose studs you have in mind and ask them if they would take this prospective mare this late in the season - or even early next. I think that little exercise will show you in very real terms how 'marketable' she (or her prospective foal) might be. Better to get rejected now than after you've bought her I always say. (AND a note to Jordan, our resident Afleet Alex fan: Even paying Jack Werks' rate for a mare analysis that highly recommends your mare to a certain stallion, calculating an A+++ Werks' rating for the mating, does not mean that stallion's connections are the least bit obligated to accept your mare for a breeding, let alone simply getting a good score using the on-line "freebie" version of that analysis, known as "E-Nicks" - I know this from personal experience, so forewarned is fair warned. Those stallion managers definitely look at any prospective mares' race history in terms of class of racing as much as winnings/wins record AND at that all important female family history of Black Type production.)
The foal you contemplate producing here wouldn't have any black type on her catalog page because they won't go back to the 5th dam in preparing her catalog page. This would be true even if you were able to get her bred to Afleet Alex or any other high value stud, E-Nicks (and other matching recommendations/systems) not withstanding. So that leaves you continuing to invest in a foal that has no market appeal (for racing purposes) until it is at least a 2 year old when you have a VERY remote outside chance of recouping your investment, but ONLY IF the resulting foal runs a hole in the wind at one of the better In Training Sales AND three years from now the economy is booming, the oil sheiks (or some other form of mega-bucks income earners are back at the sales AND the weather is nice enough on the day of your particular sale that enough buyers hang around after the Select session, because your foal won't get into that portion of the sale. Why not? Because it doesn't have the catalog page to qualify. IF you don't think all these what-ifs are that important you need to talk to some of my fellow Texas breeders who've had their sale prospects go from excellent to awful due to national events, a minor crash of the stock market the day before bidding, the landing of a major hurricane in an adjoining state that has VLTs and hence financial support for top purses....each and every time the resulting sale results were impacted mightily by these external events that no one could have predicted, becaue they kept potential buyers away from the sale.
Still think you can discount all these 'ifs'? Then think of it in terms of money. Every decision you're about to make has a price tag so: add up your costs for the mare and the foal (because surely you're not going to 'discard' this unsound mare once you have the foal you're considering) from original vet-check/purchase and delivery costs to get her to you/her prospective date through foaling, then weaning, then yearling board, the foal's initial backing & conditioning/training for 2YO Sale you have in mind. Be sure to include all transportation, commissions, registrations and entry costs, etc. along with adequate amounts for vet, farrier and dental care - including some for unexpected events. Look at that very large number and ask yourself if you have that kind of money to 'lose' because if you'll go to the Fasig-Tipton Sale site and review the Sale results for just this year's 2YO in training sales - which have actually been fairly strong overall - and I'm talking about the individual bids, not the summaries - you'll realize that in all likliehood you're going to either let this mare's 2YO go for a small fraction of what you've put into him hoping he'll make it to the track, win and you'll get breeders awards; OR you're going to bring him home and start investing more money trying to get him to the track yourself.
Which brings us back to the catalog page's importance in the marketplace: the chances of a foal coming from a female family this absent of any recent BT performing offspring IS SO REMOTE that it's doubtful anyone would get that excited even if the foal did run a hole in the wind, but certainly not prior to that.
And the risks outlined above have absolutely nothing to do with the very real risks that she can't carry a foal full term, might not be easily got in foal/kept in foal, might bear a runty little or crooked little thing, etc.
REMEMBER: The idea is to breed the best to the best, which is not one and the same as the best-loved with the best-loved or even 'the best <I/YOU> can afford'.......... and even then - when you've bred the best to the best you are left HOPING (for anywhere from 11 months to 3+ years) for the best.
IT's a daunting task in terms of the risks that have to be assumed/undertaken, the not uncommon emotionally crushing losses (like a lovely foal being born dead or dying a day or two later), AND it's very expensive.
How marketable would her bloodlines be if I decided to sell her after one foal?
And above it was pointed out that:
The foal won't show a blacktype producing dam until you get to the 5th dam.
For the 'marketing' of a registered thoroughbred foal - (ASIDE: IS that what you have in mind? Frankly, it's hard to tell from your posts if you have a definite goal in mind when considering this mare OR simply, as Derring points out above, have it in your head to get this mare and are seeking various input on what to do with her once you act on your desire)...........Anway - as I was saying: For the 'marketing' of a registered thoroughbred foal for the racing world - as an embryo thru weanling thru yearling the importance of the foal having a decent catalog page, i.e. a family with history of black type performers under the first - third dams can not be overstated.
Even the very best of sires can not and are not expected to overcome mares whose capacity for delivering talented offspring has become an historical footnote in their pedigrees. That's why you have to nominate your mares, even your really good mares, to these stallions and nominate early in hopes of being selected - then you get the honor of paying a huge price to see the lucky boy. IF you don't believe that stallion managers - at least those that manage top stallions - are picky about who they breed Mr. So And So to just call up or e-mail a couple of the farms whose studs you have in mind and ask them if they would take this prospective mare this late in the season - or even early next. I think that little exercise will show you in very real terms how 'marketable' she (or her prospective foal) might be. Better to get rejected now than after you've bought her I always say. (AND a note to Jordan, our resident Afleet Alex fan: Even paying Jack Werks' rate for a mare analysis that highly recommends your mare to a certain stallion, calculating an A+++ Werks' rating for the mating, does not mean that stallion's connections are the least bit obligated to accept your mare for a breeding, let alone simply getting a good score using the on-line "freebie" version of that analysis, known as "E-Nicks" - I know this from personal experience, so forewarned is fair warned. Those stallion managers definitely look at any prospective mares' race history in terms of class of racing as much as winnings/wins record AND at that all important female family history of Black Type production.)
The foal you contemplate producing here wouldn't have any black type on her catalog page because they won't go back to the 5th dam in preparing her catalog page. This would be true even if you were able to get her bred to Afleet Alex or any other high value stud, E-Nicks (and other matching recommendations/systems) not withstanding. So that leaves you continuing to invest in a foal that has no market appeal (for racing purposes) until it is at least a 2 year old when you have a VERY remote outside chance of recouping your investment, but ONLY IF the resulting foal runs a hole in the wind at one of the better In Training Sales AND three years from now the economy is booming, the oil sheiks (or some other form of mega-bucks income earners are back at the sales AND the weather is nice enough on the day of your particular sale that enough buyers hang around after the Select session, because your foal won't get into that portion of the sale. Why not? Because it doesn't have the catalog page to qualify. IF you don't think all these what-ifs are that important you need to talk to some of my fellow Texas breeders who've had their sale prospects go from excellent to awful due to national events, a minor crash of the stock market the day before bidding, the landing of a major hurricane in an adjoining state that has VLTs and hence financial support for top purses....each and every time the resulting sale results were impacted mightily by these external events that no one could have predicted, becaue they kept potential buyers away from the sale.
Still think you can discount all these 'ifs'? Then think of it in terms of money. Every decision you're about to make has a price tag so: add up your costs for the mare and the foal (because surely you're not going to 'discard' this unsound mare once you have the foal you're considering) from original vet-check/purchase and delivery costs to get her to you/her prospective date through foaling, then weaning, then yearling board, the foal's initial backing & conditioning/training for 2YO Sale you have in mind. Be sure to include all transportation, commissions, registrations and entry costs, etc. along with adequate amounts for vet, farrier and dental care - including some for unexpected events. Look at that very large number and ask yourself if you have that kind of money to 'lose' because if you'll go to the Fasig-Tipton Sale site and review the Sale results for just this year's 2YO in training sales - which have actually been fairly strong overall - and I'm talking about the individual bids, not the summaries - you'll realize that in all likliehood you're going to either let this mare's 2YO go for a small fraction of what you've put into him hoping he'll make it to the track, win and you'll get breeders awards; OR you're going to bring him home and start investing more money trying to get him to the track yourself.
Which brings us back to the catalog page's importance in the marketplace: the chances of a foal coming from a female family this absent of any recent BT performing offspring IS SO REMOTE that it's doubtful anyone would get that excited even if the foal did run a hole in the wind, but certainly not prior to that.
And the risks outlined above have absolutely nothing to do with the very real risks that she can't carry a foal full term, might not be easily got in foal/kept in foal, might bear a runty little or crooked little thing, etc.
REMEMBER: The idea is to breed the best to the best, which is not one and the same as the best-loved with the best-loved or even 'the best <I/YOU> can afford'.......... and even then - when you've bred the best to the best you are left HOPING (for anywhere from 11 months to 3+ years) for the best.
IT's a daunting task in terms of the risks that have to be assumed/undertaken, the not uncommon emotionally crushing losses (like a lovely foal being born dead or dying a day or two later), AND it's very expensive.
