The bottom line is you are being disingenuous by saying Jones is being "ignored at $100k" and using the fact that there are deals being made to support that conclusion. It's circular logic at best.
There are deals being made on Mineshaft and Empire Maker, too. I don't hear you saying they are "being ignore at $100k" because of it, so the only thing I can conclude by your focusing on Jones is that you have some personal agenda regarding that horse, especially since you've been knocking him for just about everything since June.
Of COURSE there are deals being made, it's just plain good business sense to do so, just as it was good business sense to price him at $100k.
They KNEW they were going to have people looking to cut deals and they had to put him in a price range that would allow that. If they had priced him at $60k and got a full book without a single person asking to cut a deal, that would be a flashing neon sign that they had underpriced him.
Humans in general and capitalist minded Americans in particular LOVE to make deals. It's all part of the 'game'.
If I know I can fill a stallions book at $75k, you're damn right I'm going to price him at $100k. You need that $25k cushion so the mare owners feel like they are 'getting a deal' when you agree to it. You get your 'original' asking price of $75k, the mare owner gets to feel like they got a deal by knocking $25k off the advertised stud fee .. psychologically, it's a win for both parties.
re: Smarty Jones...here we "spin" again...hmmm
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Hi Sam
As you may recall...the SJ per-share price was announced months ago...the figures were ridiculous then ($650k per share...60 shares)...they're ridiculous now. No stud fee was announced at the time.
Obviously team Smarty had to at least attempt to justify the announced $650k "per-share" price with an appropriate stud fee. Voila...$100k.
The per-share price and announced stud fee not only generated resistance...but criticism...from many commercial breeders.
Everything about the Smarty Jones syndication was (for lack of a better description) "in-your-face." 60 shares @ $650k apiece...absurd. $100k stud fee...also absurd.
Three Chimneys' syndication of dual-classic-winner Point Given @ $1 mil per share...was still fresh in many minds...as was the memory of his original $125k stud fee...ouch (on both counts).
The lack of success of recent dual classic winners...Real Quiet...Charismatic...and Silver Charm (until recently a Three Chimneys' resident)...is also fresh...
...and to add insult to injury dual classic winner Point Given (SJ's neighbor) is having serious difficulty in attracting support (despite "deals")...plus his offspring are generating little if any enthusiasm. Will he be the next cut-and-run dual-classic-winning stallion?
Sam...this Smarty Jones deal is a stinker...but who knows...ultimately he may be a success.
Smarty Jones is a stallion they MUST attract mares to in order to fill his book. The Chapman's have no mares...unless they buy some, and Three Chimneys (I assure you) did not intend to send a "load" of mares to him. That plan may have to be revised.
There is not the same urgency with either Mineshaft or Empire Maker. And that is not to say that either Mineshaft or Empire Maker is a "bargain."
But consider this...Will Farish and his circle of clients, associates, friends and family could fill Mineshaft's book (with exceptional stock) if not one outside mare was attracted, and that's not to infer that many outside mares have not been attracted.
As for Empire Maker...Prince Khaled Abdullah certainly has one of the elite racing stables and broodmare bands in the world...and will support his horse in a fashion that few can...and that is also not intended to infer that many outside mares have not been attracted.
I believe that each of those two (Mineshaft and Empire Maker) brings more to the table than Smarty Jones...we can debate that later.
...until then
Respectfully
As you may recall...the SJ per-share price was announced months ago...the figures were ridiculous then ($650k per share...60 shares)...they're ridiculous now. No stud fee was announced at the time.
Obviously team Smarty had to at least attempt to justify the announced $650k "per-share" price with an appropriate stud fee. Voila...$100k.
The per-share price and announced stud fee not only generated resistance...but criticism...from many commercial breeders.
Everything about the Smarty Jones syndication was (for lack of a better description) "in-your-face." 60 shares @ $650k apiece...absurd. $100k stud fee...also absurd.
Three Chimneys' syndication of dual-classic-winner Point Given @ $1 mil per share...was still fresh in many minds...as was the memory of his original $125k stud fee...ouch (on both counts).
The lack of success of recent dual classic winners...Real Quiet...Charismatic...and Silver Charm (until recently a Three Chimneys' resident)...is also fresh...
...and to add insult to injury dual classic winner Point Given (SJ's neighbor) is having serious difficulty in attracting support (despite "deals")...plus his offspring are generating little if any enthusiasm. Will he be the next cut-and-run dual-classic-winning stallion?
Sam...this Smarty Jones deal is a stinker...but who knows...ultimately he may be a success.
Smarty Jones is a stallion they MUST attract mares to in order to fill his book. The Chapman's have no mares...unless they buy some, and Three Chimneys (I assure you) did not intend to send a "load" of mares to him. That plan may have to be revised.
There is not the same urgency with either Mineshaft or Empire Maker. And that is not to say that either Mineshaft or Empire Maker is a "bargain."
But consider this...Will Farish and his circle of clients, associates, friends and family could fill Mineshaft's book (with exceptional stock) if not one outside mare was attracted, and that's not to infer that many outside mares have not been attracted.
As for Empire Maker...Prince Khaled Abdullah certainly has one of the elite racing stables and broodmare bands in the world...and will support his horse in a fashion that few can...and that is also not intended to infer that many outside mares have not been attracted.
I believe that each of those two (Mineshaft and Empire Maker) brings more to the table than Smarty Jones...we can debate that later.
...until then
Respectfully
Sam wrote:Of COURSE there are deals being made, it's just plain good business sense to do so, just as it was good business sense to price him at $100k.
They KNEW they were going to have people looking to cut deals and they had to put him in a price range that would allow that. If they had priced him at $60k and got a full book without a single person asking to cut a deal, that would be a flashing neon sign that they had underpriced him.
Humans in general and capitalist minded Americans in particular LOVE to make deals. It's all part of the 'game'.
If I know I can fill a stallions book at $75k, you're damn right I'm going to price him at $100k. You need that $25k cushion so the mare owners feel like they are 'getting a deal' when you agree to it. You get your 'original' asking price of $75k, the mare owner gets to feel like they got a deal by knocking $25k off the advertised stud fee .. psychologically, it's a win for both parties.
Perfect definition of the word "retail"....
Madelyn says: >>>Humans in general and capitalist minded Americans in particular LOVE to make deals. It's all part of the 'game'. <<<
Don't have particular experience with "deal makers" in the horse biz, but in the real estate biz (in very high end property), I'd say the ones who push the hardest to get a bargain are the Middle and Far Eastern immigrants.
Don't have particular experience with "deal makers" in the horse biz, but in the real estate biz (in very high end property), I'd say the ones who push the hardest to get a bargain are the Middle and Far Eastern immigrants.
BJ wrote:Madelyn says: >>>Humans in general and capitalist minded Americans in particular LOVE to make deals. It's all part of the 'game'. <<<
Don't have particular experience with "deal makers" in the horse biz, but in the real estate biz (in very high end property), I'd say the ones who push the hardest to get a bargain are the Middle and Far Eastern immigrants.
Actually, I said that and Madelyn quoted it and yes, I had that same experience when I was working for Shappel. Most of our buyers in N. CA were Asian, paid cash (with rather dubious income sources) and did everything they could to get the price to come down.
DO THE MATH...
60 SHARE HOLDERS = 60 MARES
100 LIMIT - 60 = 40 OUTSIDE MARES
There are people standing in line at Walmart that would buy into that deal for a 100k...
most will keep their foals and about 30 will be at various yearling sales.... lucky son-of-a-guns... betcha that GULF STATES FARM with Jerry Bailey amongst the owners have several mares already in place...
Smarty foals will command some very big prices...
Rerun the Belmont tape and watch the 3 jockeys hustle Smarty and Elliot in the first turn and in the back stretch... and then look at their final placings... it took the fresher horse and jockey that already knew the plan... to come and beat Smarty... seeing is believing.... laughing texas..
60 SHARE HOLDERS = 60 MARES
100 LIMIT - 60 = 40 OUTSIDE MARES
There are people standing in line at Walmart that would buy into that deal for a 100k...
most will keep their foals and about 30 will be at various yearling sales.... lucky son-of-a-guns... betcha that GULF STATES FARM with Jerry Bailey amongst the owners have several mares already in place...
Smarty foals will command some very big prices...
Rerun the Belmont tape and watch the 3 jockeys hustle Smarty and Elliot in the first turn and in the back stretch... and then look at their final placings... it took the fresher horse and jockey that already knew the plan... to come and beat Smarty... seeing is believing.... laughing texas..
I STARTED OUT WITH NOTHING...
AND STILL HAVE MOST OF IT...
AND STILL HAVE MOST OF IT...
Texas says >>>Rerun the Belmont tape and watch the 3 jockeys hustle Smarty and Elliot in the first turn and in the back stretch... and then look at their final placings... it took the fresher horse and jockey that already knew the plan... to come and beat Smarty... seeing is believing.... laughing texas..<<<
Texas,
You really have to stop this...people will begin to talk. I now agree with you on two points...Alydar and now this.
Texas,
You really have to stop this...people will begin to talk. I now agree with you on two points...Alydar and now this.
P.S.
There was also a bit of foul play in that "plan" and execution of same. If it had been the type of one jock hitting the other's horse with the whip, it would have been worthy of a dq. Unfortunately, it was the down & dirty type having the same affect. The other part of the equation was the trainer getting too cocky, IMO, and in doing so he shortchanged Smarty.
There was also a bit of foul play in that "plan" and execution of same. If it had been the type of one jock hitting the other's horse with the whip, it would have been worthy of a dq. Unfortunately, it was the down & dirty type having the same affect. The other part of the equation was the trainer getting too cocky, IMO, and in doing so he shortchanged Smarty.
-
bcassidy
- Restricted Stakes Winner
- Posts: 876
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:36 pm
- Location: Springfield twshp, NJ
Here's my two cents.
Comparing a 3 year old to an older horse is a very difficult--- if not impossible task. Ghostzapper wasn't the 3 yr old that Smarty was and we will certainly never know what kind of horse Smarty would have been at 4 or more years of age, so in my opinion this is an apples to oranges comparison. It may come down to a popularity contest and not a true talent show--- a very fast 3 yr old or a very fast 5 yr old. For what ever it is worth== the guys who do speed figure calculations, like Raggozin and Brown, both believe that Smarty was one of the fastest 3 yr olds they ever clocked and similarily, Ghostzapper is one of the fastest horses to ever have race, of coarse you do have the Frankel affect to consider???. It is a very difficult call in my opinion, but no matter which one wins, they are both truely deserving horses.
To address the stud fee discussion in this thread here is my analysis. Gone West is 125k and is a proven sire of sires, great value, Elusive Quality the sire of Smarty Jones is the same stud fee as Smarty but Elusive Quality is a proven producer. Smarty hasn't proved anything yet and his 2 and 3 yr old stud fees will almost certainly be less than his first year, as are most 1st year stallions, so I find it hard to believe that you would go to Smarty before Elusive or even Elusive before Gone West. I certainly rank them Gone West first, Elusive Quality second and then Smarty a distant third. If there was a bigger delta in the stud fees it would be a much different discussion, but with the stud fees all being so similar, it is no contest in my opinion. I believe Gone West at 150k, Elusive Quality at 75k and Smarty at 25k would make the decision a coin flip. Of coarse you also have the availability of the stallion to deal with. Just my thoughts, I would appreciate hearing comments on my analysis.
Comparing a 3 year old to an older horse is a very difficult--- if not impossible task. Ghostzapper wasn't the 3 yr old that Smarty was and we will certainly never know what kind of horse Smarty would have been at 4 or more years of age, so in my opinion this is an apples to oranges comparison. It may come down to a popularity contest and not a true talent show--- a very fast 3 yr old or a very fast 5 yr old. For what ever it is worth== the guys who do speed figure calculations, like Raggozin and Brown, both believe that Smarty was one of the fastest 3 yr olds they ever clocked and similarily, Ghostzapper is one of the fastest horses to ever have race, of coarse you do have the Frankel affect to consider???. It is a very difficult call in my opinion, but no matter which one wins, they are both truely deserving horses.
To address the stud fee discussion in this thread here is my analysis. Gone West is 125k and is a proven sire of sires, great value, Elusive Quality the sire of Smarty Jones is the same stud fee as Smarty but Elusive Quality is a proven producer. Smarty hasn't proved anything yet and his 2 and 3 yr old stud fees will almost certainly be less than his first year, as are most 1st year stallions, so I find it hard to believe that you would go to Smarty before Elusive or even Elusive before Gone West. I certainly rank them Gone West first, Elusive Quality second and then Smarty a distant third. If there was a bigger delta in the stud fees it would be a much different discussion, but with the stud fees all being so similar, it is no contest in my opinion. I believe Gone West at 150k, Elusive Quality at 75k and Smarty at 25k would make the decision a coin flip. Of coarse you also have the availability of the stallion to deal with. Just my thoughts, I would appreciate hearing comments on my analysis.
best regards Brendan
I would have to go with SMARTY JONES and GIANTS CAUSEWAY to be the best sires in the next 10 years.
Right now if I was looking for a derby or triple crown winner the last one I would go to is Smarty's sire... the odds are against him of siring another one.
The phenomenon that has always intrigued me... people running to the sire of a major winner thinking that he will produce another one ... which rarely or never happens. Same with breeding to or buying a full brother of a major winner.
Based on the data I have written down on a brown paper bag.... (I copied the data contained on one side ...see below)...
I hope the data below will also let you understand why I have hopes of having a good broodmare by Sunny's Halo o/o a daughter of Top Avenger.
.....texas...
TIME: The fastest start in the Derby was run by Top Avenger, who zoomed out to a :21 4/5 opening quarter en route to a 19th-place finish in 1981. Top Avenger and Groovy (16th in 1986) ran the quickest opening half-miles (:45 1/5) while Spend a Buck, winner of the 1985 Derby, posted times of 1:09 3/5 and 1:34 4/5 for three-quarters and one mile. Secretariat set the track record of 1:59 2/5 for 1 1/4 miles in winning the 1973 Derby.
Different color horses that have won the Derby.
Bay - 59
Chestnut - 39
Brown - 17 Gray- 6
Black - 4
Roan - 1
Winning Colors (1988) is the only roan to win the Derby
LETTERS: There have been 17 triumphs by horses whose names started with S, making it the most popular letter among Derby winners. Next is B (11), C (11) and A (8). There has never been a Derby winner whose name started with a Q, X or Y. No horse whose name has started with an X has ever run in the Derby.
THREE WINNERS: Only 4 have sired three winners: Falsetto - Chant (1894), His Eminence (1901), Sir Huon (1906). Virgil - Vagrant (1876), Hindoo (1881), Ben Ali (1886). *Sir Gallahad III - Gallant Fox (1930), Gallahadion (1940), Hoop Jr. (1945). Bull Lea - Citation (1948), Hill Gail (1952), Iron Liege (1957).
TWO WINNERS: Only 14 have sired two winners: King Alfonso - Fonso (1880), Joe Cotton (1885). Longfellow - Leonatus (1883), Riley (1890). Broomstick - Meridian (1911), Regret (1915). *McGee - Donerail (1913), Exterminator (1918). The Finn - Zev (1923), Flying Ebony (1925). Black Toney - Black Gold (1924), Brokers Tip (1933). *St. Germans - Twenty Grand (1931), Bold Venture (1936). Man o' War - Clyde Van Dusen (1929), War Admiral (1937). *Blenheim II - Whirlaway (1941), Jet Pilot (1947). Bold Venture - Assault (1946), Middleground (1950). Bold Bidder - Cannonade (1974), Spectacular Bid (1979). Exclusive Native - Affirmed (1978), Genuine Risk (1980). Halo - Sunny's Halo (1983), Sunday Silence (1989). Alydar - Alysheba (1987), Strike the Gold (1991).
DERBY WINNERS: A total of 12 Kentucky Derby champions have sired winners of the race: Halma (1895) sired Alan-a-Dale (1902). Bubbling Over (1926) sired Burgoo King (1932). Reigh Count (1928) sired Count Fleet (1943). Gallant Fox (1930) sired Omaha (1935). Bold Venture (1936) sired Assault (1946) and Middleground (1950). Pensive (1944) sired Ponder (1949). Count Fleet (1943) sired Count Turf (1951). Ponder (1949) sired Needles (1956). Determine (1954) sired Decidedly (1962). Swaps (1955) sired Chateaugay (1963). Seattle Slew (1977) sired Swale (1984). Unbridled (1990) sired Grindstone (1996).
1. Secretariat 1:59 2/5 (1973)
2. Monarchos 1:59.97 (2001)
3. Northern Dancer 2:00 (1964)
4. Spend a Buck 2:00 1/5 (1985)
5. Decidedly 2:00 2/5 (1962)
6. Proud Clarion 2:00 3/5 (1967)
7. Grindstone 2:01 (1996)
8. War Emblem 2:01.13 (2002)
9. Lucky Debonair
Affirmed
Thunder Gulch 2:01
2:01
2:01 1/5
1/5
1/5 (1965)
(1978)
(1995)
12. Whirlaway 2:01 2/5 (1941)
13. Middleground
Hill Gail
Bold Forbes 2:01
2:01
2:01 3/5
3/5
3/5 (1950)
(1952)
(1976)
FASTEST, SLOWEST TIMES
AT 1 1 /4 MILES
Secretariat
1:59 2/5
Stone Street
2:15 1/5
(1908)
FRACTIONS AT 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, MILE DISTANCES
QUARTER MILE
:21:4 Top Avenger (1981)
:22 Bombay Duck (1975)
:22:1 Kentucky Sherry (1968)
:22:1 Barbs Delight (1967)
:22:1 Groovy (1986)
:22:1 Honour and Glory (1996)
:22:2 Dominant (1916)
:22:2 Olympia (1949)
:22:2 Royal Shuck (1964)
:22:2 Bold Forbes (1976)
:22:2 Serena's Song (1995)
HALF MILE
:45:1 Top Avenger (1981)
:45:1 Groovy (1986)
:45:2 Bombay Duck (1975)
:45:3 Sensitive Prince (1978)
:45:3 Old Trieste (1998)
:45:4 For The Moment (1977)
:45:4 Bold Forbes (1976)
:45:4 Kentucky Sherry (1968)
:45:4 Lee Town (1962)
:45:4 Spend a Buck (1985)
:45:4 Serena's Song (1995)
THREE-QUARTER MILE
1:09:3 Spend a Buck (1985)
1:09:4 Kentucky Sherry (1968)
1:10 Never Bend (1963)
1:10 Honour and Glory (1996)
1:10:1 Sunrise County (1962)
1:10:1 Top Avenger (1981)
1:10:1 Groovy (1986)
1:10:1 Serena's Song (1995)
ONE MILE
1:34:4 Spend a Buck (1985)
1:35 Kauai King (1966)
1:35 Unbridled's Song (1996)
1:35:1 Admiral's Voyage (1962)
1:35:2 Never Bend (1963)
1:35.2 Hill Gail (1952)
AND NOW THERE IS THE CHOICE OF JOCKEYS... justagrinnin ... texas
Right now if I was looking for a derby or triple crown winner the last one I would go to is Smarty's sire... the odds are against him of siring another one.
The phenomenon that has always intrigued me... people running to the sire of a major winner thinking that he will produce another one ... which rarely or never happens. Same with breeding to or buying a full brother of a major winner.
Based on the data I have written down on a brown paper bag.... (I copied the data contained on one side ...see below)...
I hope the data below will also let you understand why I have hopes of having a good broodmare by Sunny's Halo o/o a daughter of Top Avenger.
.....texas...
TIME: The fastest start in the Derby was run by Top Avenger, who zoomed out to a :21 4/5 opening quarter en route to a 19th-place finish in 1981. Top Avenger and Groovy (16th in 1986) ran the quickest opening half-miles (:45 1/5) while Spend a Buck, winner of the 1985 Derby, posted times of 1:09 3/5 and 1:34 4/5 for three-quarters and one mile. Secretariat set the track record of 1:59 2/5 for 1 1/4 miles in winning the 1973 Derby.
Different color horses that have won the Derby.
Bay - 59
Chestnut - 39
Brown - 17 Gray- 6
Black - 4
Roan - 1
Winning Colors (1988) is the only roan to win the Derby
LETTERS: There have been 17 triumphs by horses whose names started with S, making it the most popular letter among Derby winners. Next is B (11), C (11) and A (8). There has never been a Derby winner whose name started with a Q, X or Y. No horse whose name has started with an X has ever run in the Derby.
THREE WINNERS: Only 4 have sired three winners: Falsetto - Chant (1894), His Eminence (1901), Sir Huon (1906). Virgil - Vagrant (1876), Hindoo (1881), Ben Ali (1886). *Sir Gallahad III - Gallant Fox (1930), Gallahadion (1940), Hoop Jr. (1945). Bull Lea - Citation (1948), Hill Gail (1952), Iron Liege (1957).
TWO WINNERS: Only 14 have sired two winners: King Alfonso - Fonso (1880), Joe Cotton (1885). Longfellow - Leonatus (1883), Riley (1890). Broomstick - Meridian (1911), Regret (1915). *McGee - Donerail (1913), Exterminator (1918). The Finn - Zev (1923), Flying Ebony (1925). Black Toney - Black Gold (1924), Brokers Tip (1933). *St. Germans - Twenty Grand (1931), Bold Venture (1936). Man o' War - Clyde Van Dusen (1929), War Admiral (1937). *Blenheim II - Whirlaway (1941), Jet Pilot (1947). Bold Venture - Assault (1946), Middleground (1950). Bold Bidder - Cannonade (1974), Spectacular Bid (1979). Exclusive Native - Affirmed (1978), Genuine Risk (1980). Halo - Sunny's Halo (1983), Sunday Silence (1989). Alydar - Alysheba (1987), Strike the Gold (1991).
DERBY WINNERS: A total of 12 Kentucky Derby champions have sired winners of the race: Halma (1895) sired Alan-a-Dale (1902). Bubbling Over (1926) sired Burgoo King (1932). Reigh Count (1928) sired Count Fleet (1943). Gallant Fox (1930) sired Omaha (1935). Bold Venture (1936) sired Assault (1946) and Middleground (1950). Pensive (1944) sired Ponder (1949). Count Fleet (1943) sired Count Turf (1951). Ponder (1949) sired Needles (1956). Determine (1954) sired Decidedly (1962). Swaps (1955) sired Chateaugay (1963). Seattle Slew (1977) sired Swale (1984). Unbridled (1990) sired Grindstone (1996).
1. Secretariat 1:59 2/5 (1973)
2. Monarchos 1:59.97 (2001)
3. Northern Dancer 2:00 (1964)
4. Spend a Buck 2:00 1/5 (1985)
5. Decidedly 2:00 2/5 (1962)
6. Proud Clarion 2:00 3/5 (1967)
7. Grindstone 2:01 (1996)
8. War Emblem 2:01.13 (2002)
9. Lucky Debonair
Affirmed
Thunder Gulch 2:01
2:01
2:01 1/5
1/5
1/5 (1965)
(1978)
(1995)
12. Whirlaway 2:01 2/5 (1941)
13. Middleground
Hill Gail
Bold Forbes 2:01
2:01
2:01 3/5
3/5
3/5 (1950)
(1952)
(1976)
FASTEST, SLOWEST TIMES
AT 1 1 /4 MILES
Secretariat
1:59 2/5
Stone Street
2:15 1/5
(1908)
FRACTIONS AT 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, MILE DISTANCES
QUARTER MILE
:21:4 Top Avenger (1981)
:22 Bombay Duck (1975)
:22:1 Kentucky Sherry (1968)
:22:1 Barbs Delight (1967)
:22:1 Groovy (1986)
:22:1 Honour and Glory (1996)
:22:2 Dominant (1916)
:22:2 Olympia (1949)
:22:2 Royal Shuck (1964)
:22:2 Bold Forbes (1976)
:22:2 Serena's Song (1995)
HALF MILE
:45:1 Top Avenger (1981)
:45:1 Groovy (1986)
:45:2 Bombay Duck (1975)
:45:3 Sensitive Prince (1978)
:45:3 Old Trieste (1998)
:45:4 For The Moment (1977)
:45:4 Bold Forbes (1976)
:45:4 Kentucky Sherry (1968)
:45:4 Lee Town (1962)
:45:4 Spend a Buck (1985)
:45:4 Serena's Song (1995)
THREE-QUARTER MILE
1:09:3 Spend a Buck (1985)
1:09:4 Kentucky Sherry (1968)
1:10 Never Bend (1963)
1:10 Honour and Glory (1996)
1:10:1 Sunrise County (1962)
1:10:1 Top Avenger (1981)
1:10:1 Groovy (1986)
1:10:1 Serena's Song (1995)
ONE MILE
1:34:4 Spend a Buck (1985)
1:35 Kauai King (1966)
1:35 Unbridled's Song (1996)
1:35:1 Admiral's Voyage (1962)
1:35:2 Never Bend (1963)
1:35.2 Hill Gail (1952)
AND NOW THERE IS THE CHOICE OF JOCKEYS... justagrinnin ... texas
I STARTED OUT WITH NOTHING...
AND STILL HAVE MOST OF IT...
AND STILL HAVE MOST OF IT...
Brendan,
I think you're right about on on that. I think the big question is going to be whether Elusive Quality is going to be a Sire of Sires. If we all remember, we weren't sure he was going to be a decent sire at one point. So I think it's actually a big turning point for EQ since Smarty will get some great mares and have every chance.
I think it will be very interesting.
I think you're right about on on that. I think the big question is going to be whether Elusive Quality is going to be a Sire of Sires. If we all remember, we weren't sure he was going to be a decent sire at one point. So I think it's actually a big turning point for EQ since Smarty will get some great mares and have every chance.
I think it will be very interesting.
Hi bcassidy
So who's your Horse of the Year choice? Enough with the diplomatic "stuff"...is it Smarty Jones or Ghostzapper?
Let's have some fun.
We're talking 2004 Horse of the Year here...what do you think...SJ and Ghostzapper on the best day of their lives...no set-backs...no excuses...each training up to the race perfectly...BC Classic...perfect conditions...a fast dirt track...a mile and a quarter...perfect post positions...in the starting gate...a perfect break for both...and a perfect trip for both.
Who do you like in that one bcassidy? Don't hold it in...let it out!
I say Ghostzapper handily.
bcassidy...it might be interesting to ask Raggozin and Brown how Ghostzapper fits into their "fastest horse" discussion (age aside). Remember we are debating Horse of the Year...not best 3 year-old or older horse.
You wrote that according to Raggozin and Brown, SJ was one of the "fastest 3 yr olds they ever clocked"...but reality is that SJ never put the clock in danger in the afternoon. And if the response to that is 'he didn't have to'...remember Ghostzapper didn't have to either, but he did. Ghostzapper won the BC Classic easily and still SMASHED the 1 1/4 mile track record...setting a new track record of 1:59.02 (and looking fresh while crossing under the wire). Furthermore, Ghostzapper defeated a star studded field in the BC Classic.
In the case of Smarty Jones, none of his rivals (other than Birdstone who defeated SJ in the Belmont) has gone on to offer anything more than the slightest evidence that this crop of three year-olds is anything more than very ordinary...this does not advance Smarty's case for Horse of the Year honors.
Many believe that Ghostzapper is a "freak" and deserving of Horse of the Year honors...and that Smarty Jones is a wonderful 3 year-old who was retired after finishing second in the Belmont to another wonderful 3 year-old colt Birdstone.
Re: Ghostzapper...the evaluation you referenced that recognizes him as "one of the fastest horses to ever...race" certainly places him among a very elite group. You went on to say "of course you do have the Frankel affect to consider???"
Regardless of the obvious Horse of the Year selections of trainers Servis and Frankel...it is clear that Ghostzapper had no trouble with Pleasantly Perfect, Roses in May, Azeri etc etc etc...furthermore Ghostzapper not only broke a track record but also ran "Beyers" (short and long) like no other horse in the country...including an incredible 120 and a beyond-incredible 128 !!! (As mentioned above...it would also be interesting to get the Rag numbers for Ghostzapper and Smarty).
You also wrote..."It may come down to a popularity contest and not a true talent show--- a very fast 3 yr old or a very fast 5 yr old." (bcassidy, Ghostzapper is a 4 yo not a 5 yo...I'm sure that's what you meant)
You might be correct...it could be a popularity contest...I hope not. If the eclipse is determined by accomplishments on the track...I believe that Ghostzapper will win Horse of the Year honors, handily.
You wrote..."I believe Gone West at 150k, Elusive Quality at 75k and Smarty at 25k would make the decision a coin flip." bcassidy...Very interesting.
So bcassidy...who do you believe is most worthy of 2004 Horse of the Year honors?..and bc...no spin accepted.
Best to you always.
Respectfully.
So who's your Horse of the Year choice? Enough with the diplomatic "stuff"...is it Smarty Jones or Ghostzapper?
Let's have some fun.
We're talking 2004 Horse of the Year here...what do you think...SJ and Ghostzapper on the best day of their lives...no set-backs...no excuses...each training up to the race perfectly...BC Classic...perfect conditions...a fast dirt track...a mile and a quarter...perfect post positions...in the starting gate...a perfect break for both...and a perfect trip for both.
Who do you like in that one bcassidy? Don't hold it in...let it out!
I say Ghostzapper handily.
bcassidy...it might be interesting to ask Raggozin and Brown how Ghostzapper fits into their "fastest horse" discussion (age aside). Remember we are debating Horse of the Year...not best 3 year-old or older horse.
You wrote that according to Raggozin and Brown, SJ was one of the "fastest 3 yr olds they ever clocked"...but reality is that SJ never put the clock in danger in the afternoon. And if the response to that is 'he didn't have to'...remember Ghostzapper didn't have to either, but he did. Ghostzapper won the BC Classic easily and still SMASHED the 1 1/4 mile track record...setting a new track record of 1:59.02 (and looking fresh while crossing under the wire). Furthermore, Ghostzapper defeated a star studded field in the BC Classic.
In the case of Smarty Jones, none of his rivals (other than Birdstone who defeated SJ in the Belmont) has gone on to offer anything more than the slightest evidence that this crop of three year-olds is anything more than very ordinary...this does not advance Smarty's case for Horse of the Year honors.
Many believe that Ghostzapper is a "freak" and deserving of Horse of the Year honors...and that Smarty Jones is a wonderful 3 year-old who was retired after finishing second in the Belmont to another wonderful 3 year-old colt Birdstone.
Re: Ghostzapper...the evaluation you referenced that recognizes him as "one of the fastest horses to ever...race" certainly places him among a very elite group. You went on to say "of course you do have the Frankel affect to consider???"
Regardless of the obvious Horse of the Year selections of trainers Servis and Frankel...it is clear that Ghostzapper had no trouble with Pleasantly Perfect, Roses in May, Azeri etc etc etc...furthermore Ghostzapper not only broke a track record but also ran "Beyers" (short and long) like no other horse in the country...including an incredible 120 and a beyond-incredible 128 !!! (As mentioned above...it would also be interesting to get the Rag numbers for Ghostzapper and Smarty).
You also wrote..."It may come down to a popularity contest and not a true talent show--- a very fast 3 yr old or a very fast 5 yr old." (bcassidy, Ghostzapper is a 4 yo not a 5 yo...I'm sure that's what you meant)
You might be correct...it could be a popularity contest...I hope not. If the eclipse is determined by accomplishments on the track...I believe that Ghostzapper will win Horse of the Year honors, handily.
You wrote..."I believe Gone West at 150k, Elusive Quality at 75k and Smarty at 25k would make the decision a coin flip." bcassidy...Very interesting.
So bcassidy...who do you believe is most worthy of 2004 Horse of the Year honors?..and bc...no spin accepted.
Best to you always.
Respectfully.
Hi TEXAS
You said..."I would have to go with SMARTY JONES and GIANTS CAUSEWAY to be the best sires in the next 10 years."
You continue to surprise and amaze me. BEST is a pretty big word...even in Texas.
Great "stuff" though...and the info and statistics are much appreciated and very interesting.
Best to you always.
Respectfully
You said..."I would have to go with SMARTY JONES and GIANTS CAUSEWAY to be the best sires in the next 10 years."
You continue to surprise and amaze me. BEST is a pretty big word...even in Texas.
Great "stuff" though...and the info and statistics are much appreciated and very interesting.
Best to you always.
Respectfully