Multicolored thouroughbreds

[alezan]

Alezan, it is true that Bett Ohio is a tb that was reg. AQHA. If no DNA was involved, then you can say the sire or dam is whomever you want.

For me who's not in to quarters I thought it would go the other way around like the one mentioned before.

[Arctic Cielo]

Well AQHA hunters want tall lean looking horses like tb's. The problem is that they want to breed tb mares to appendix qh stallions, and you cannot register a QH w/ this much tb blood unless the appendix stallion has 10 (?) show points. (after 10 points any appendix then recieves regular AQHA papers)I am assuming Bett Ohio was a mistake, or otherwise a way to get full tb's showing in the hunters by crossing him w/ other tb mares.

[Sysonby]

I vaguely remember that the AQHA changed the rules on Bett Ohio because they used to allow a TB to earn an ROM--which I thought he did--but purists didn't want a full TB in the registry so his QH papers were cancelled and he was declared to be of extraordinary merit whatever that means.

I can remember his ads in the AQHA Journal clearly showing that he was a TB (not to mention the fact that he really looked like one anyway). I doubt very much if anyone hid anything or that he was issued papers under false pretenses.

[Sysonby]

Nice summary Nerd. I think part of the reason that we are seeing more and more of the color TBs is that they are not true crop outs any more but people are actually building their breeding programs around pursuing the odd and unusual. Of course, as they become more common, they run the risk of being less desirable unless someone really steps up their color program and breeds some serious athletes.

Personally I'm not so much a purist I care if there was some fencejumping 5 generations back--if the horse is a superior athlete and brings something to the table besides a pretty color.

Nah, maybe I am a purist after all

[color]

The cream gene has always been there but with the Palominos have always been registered as chestnuts and the buckskins as bays for centuries due to people not knowing a lot about genetics.

Same applies to the colored TBs. There always have been colored TBs but they are described as bay, black or chestnut with .....white markings. My stallion Nite Spot, imported from the USA has as color bay and tons of white markings described.

But with people more and more aware and knowledgeable about colors and patterns, they have learned that there are Palominos, Buckskins, Frame Overos, Sabinos, Splash Whites and even Roans and a Brindle stallion in the gene pool of the TBs.

Saying that the cream gene did not exist already centuries ago is nonsense. Cream can hide under dark bay, black bay, black and grey and in addition the coloring was not named correctly, all Palominos were declared as chestnuts until I imported two Palomino TBs and the German JC brough this up on the International convention and since then the Palominos are allowed to be what they are: PALOMINOS. We are working on the same procedure for the other colors like Buckskin, Cremello, etc.

I Was Framed was the first colored TB to be registered as what he is, a Colored TB. Same applies to Nite Spot and Ellusive Look now.

Here is the pedigree of Sylfou xx who was a Palomino and was sold to the Hungarian States Stud: http://www.pedigreequery.com/syflou I knew already years ago that there are Palomino TBs, when I bought my Novella who came from the Hungarian States Stud. I did a pedigree work on her and found out that Sylfou the Palomino in her pedigree was a true Thoroughbred. http://perloch.ps.free.fr/sire/pscouleurs/sylfou.jpg


Here is some interesting information:
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Silverlocks.htm
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Brilliant.htm
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Jupiter.htm
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Precipitate.htm
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/OxfordDunArabian.htm

[xfactor fan]

The other genetic effect that happens apart from selection pressure is the Founder Effect.

Lets say that chestnuts are present in the original population. but they are not common, or a popular color. A buyer from elsewhere comes and purchases horses to stock a new colony. Looking for good horses, but not having the local bias against chestnuts ( and they are cheaper too) our buyer ends up with 10 horses, 5 stallions and 5 mares. 6 chestnuts, 3 bays and a gray.

During the transit to the new location the bay stallion falls off a loading dock and dies. (pure chance, nothing against bays.)

So the founding population in the new location has a very high precentage of chestnut compaired to the original population.

All it would take to "seed" the TB population with color is to have a early popular sire carry sabino. Lexington might be a good choice. He was very important, and while bay carried four white stockings, and wide white over the nose. http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Lexington.htm

[xfactor fan]

The other genetic effect that happens apart from selection pressure is the Founder Effect.

Lets say that chestnuts are present in the original population. but they are not common, or a popular color. A buyer from elsewhere comes and purchases horses to stock a new colony. Looking for good horses, but not having the local bias against chestnuts ( and they are cheaper too) our buyer ends up with 10 horses, 5 stallions and 5 mares. 6 chestnuts, 3 bays and a gray.

During the transit to the new location the bay stallion falls off a loading dock and dies. (pure chance, nothing against bays.)

So the founding population in the new location has a very high precentage of chestnut compaired to the original population.

All it would take to "seed" the TB population with color is to have a early popular sire carry sabino. Lexington might be a good choice. He was very important, and while bay carried four white stockings, and wide white over the nose. http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Lexington.htm

[teb]

I see Gwen has already replied. You will be seeing more color over here in Europe as Gwen has a very nice Cremello TB stallion in The Alchemist. She also has a palomino TB stallion and a Frame overo TB stallion. So the color will be coming over here.

I Was Framed is now standing here in Ireland by the way.

Terri

[RavenSuesMom1]

AS an aside ... alot of our QHs came from TB sprinters bred to stock horses ...

[Retrospectiv]

Very good repy from Color on the subject. (Btw Color, is your Nite Spot the same as the Peter Stone model?? I just bought one of those on Ebay

Color basically hit the nail on the head, ie: it's not that there haven't been colored tbs all over the world, just that the majority are only registered as their base color.
There's also been whites been born everywhere. Japan has Shira....(sp) and other almost whites, and this little beauty was dropped down under recently:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/4/sto ... d=10407660

No disputing her parentage, by champion stallion Zabeel and a 3/4 sibling to HOTY Might and Power....

[alezan]

The cream gene has always been there but with the Palominos have always been registered as chestnuts and the buckskins as bays for centuries due to people not knowing a lot about genetics.

Same applies to the colored TBs. There always have been colored TBs but they are described as bay, black or chestnut with .....white markings. My stallion Nite Spot, imported from the USA has as color bay and tons of white markings described.

But with people more and more aware and knowledgeable about colors and patterns, they have learned that there are Palominos, Buckskins, Frame Overos, Sabinos, Splash Whites and even Roans and a Brindle stallion in the gene pool of the TBs.

Saying that the cream gene did not exist already centuries ago is nonsense. Cream can hide under dark bay, black bay, black and grey and in addition the coloring was not named correctly, all Palominos were declared as chestnuts until I imported two Palomino TBs and the German JC brough this up on the International convention and since then the Palominos are allowed to be what they are: PALOMINOS. We are working on the same procedure for the other colors like Buckskin, Cremello, etc.

I Was Framed was the first colored TB to be registered as what he is, a Colored TB. Same applies to Nite Spot and Ellusive Look now.

Here is the pedigree of Sylfou xx who was a Palomino and was sold to the Hungarian States Stud: http://www.pedigreequery.com/syflou I knew already years ago that there are Palomino TBs, when I bought my Novella who came from the Hungarian States Stud. I did a pedigree work on her and found out that Sylfou the Palomino in her pedigree was a true Thoroughbred. http://perloch.ps.free.fr/sire/pscouleurs/sylfou.jpg


Here is some interesting information:
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Silverlocks.htm
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Brilliant.htm
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Jupiter.htm
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Precipitate.htm
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/OxfordDunArabian.htm

I have seen your website and you've got lovely horses. Still your colourful thouroughbred is imported from North America and not born in Europe. Same is for I was Framed. I am sure that looking back on I was Framed and his adding on to the General Stud Book that would have been these discussions before.

Everybody dealing and owning these colourful horses tells the same story and refers to the same websites but still these horses turns up in the States over and over again. Once you've got them it's easy to breed on.
But how can anyone for 100% say there's no pinto blood in them? Pete McCUe have heirs in to the 70-s as far as I have seen.

[TrueColours]

You have got NO idea to be very honest, what happened back in the early or mid 1900's ...

The theory is that Milkie (palomino TB stallion) was actually 1/2 Quarter Horse, but since blood typing and DNA didnt exist back then, they relied on his sire throwing a "distinctively shaped foot". Milkie had that foot, that was it - thats all the proof they required. He got his JC papers ...

Now - with all of them long gone dead, you cant prove or disprove what he is any longer so I dont think that anybody much cares anymore to be honest ...

With the sabino's though, there are dozens and dozens of lines that the sabino pattern shows up in, so unless a Paint got into an AWFUL lot of different breeding yards, right across North America, over many generations, that theory doesnt hold up at all ...

With the palomino's - there are only 2 lines in NA - Milkie and Glitter Please so yes - it IS entirely possible that something happened with the 2 of them 50 or 60 years ago to introduce the dilute gene, but with the sabino's??? I cant see it - not when it involves literally hundreds of separate lines ...

And with regards to this comment:

Thank's for your reply. Altough I've already seen that website and it is of course a promotion site for the colored horses.

My website and of course I *promote* my own horses that I breed, but this "Cool and Unusual Thoroughbreds" site was simply a labour of love and nothing more. I have been amassing pictures for years of coloured TB's and I simply started to catalogue them and then create a section on my website for them. Not to "promote" anything, but to simply make them available for people all over the world to see what fabulous colours TB's can come in ...

I received this email last year and believe me - it made all of the work that it took, VERY worthwhile ...

Hi. Just wanted to thank you for sharing your beautiful pictures online. I love Thoroughbreds and Appaloosas. I've known very little about Sabino coloring and your pictures were just fabulous. My fiancee and I have an Appaloosa Sport Horse. He has Thoroughbred in him and I'm hopeful that I'll be well again to enjoy horses in my life once again. I'm in a tremendous amount of pain and your website helped me escape for a while. Thank you so much,

[xfactor fan]

There's also what is known as the Founder Effect, which is probably why odd color show up outside of the UK.

If you start with a small population exported to elsewhere, the odds are good that you won't start with a accurate sampling of the original gene pool. Just by chance you could have more chestnuts because the importer liked the color, or chestnuts were not a popular color, and were cheaper to purchase.

This would lead to the chestnut color showing up more in the new population than in the orginal population.

Sabino in particular it tends to accumulate if you aren't breeding against it.
Clydesdale breeders in particular have know for years that you breed high whites to low whites to get the preferred four white legs and a blaze.

My theory on the cream gene, is that it has been present all along, light "golden palominos" have been selected against, because everybody knows that TB's don't have the cream gene. Palominos that have an extra modifier like sooty that darken the coats get registered as bays or chestnuts, not to mention the ones that are hiding behind gray or black.

Now with DNA testing when one of these "golden palominos" pops up it can be verified as a pure TB.

[xfactor fan]

There's also what is known as the Founder Effect, which is probably why odd color show up outside of the UK.

If you start with a small population exported to elsewhere, the odds are good that you won't start with a accurate sampling of the original gene pool. Just by chance you could have more chestnuts because the importer liked the color, or chestnuts were not a popular color, and were cheaper to purchase.

This would lead to the chestnut color showing up more in the new population than in the orginal population.

Sabino in particular it tends to accumulate if you aren't breeding against it.
Clydesdale breeders in particular have know for years that you breed high whites to low whites to get the preferred four white legs and a blaze.

My theory on the cream gene, is that it has been present all along, light "golden palominos" have been selected against, because everybody knows that TB's don't have the cream gene. Palominos that have an extra modifier like sooty that darken the coats get registered as bays or chestnuts, not to mention the ones that are hiding behind gray or black.

Now with DNA testing when one of these "golden palominos" pops up it can be verified as a pure TB.

[xfactor fan]

There's also what is known as the Founder Effect, which is probably why odd color show up outside of the UK.

If you start with a small population exported to elsewhere, the odds are good that you won't start with a accurate sampling of the original gene pool. Just by chance you could have more chestnuts because the importer liked the color, or chestnuts were not a popular color, and were cheaper to purchase.

This would lead to the chestnut color showing up more in the new population than in the orginal population.

Sabino in particular it tends to accumulate if you aren't breeding against it.
Clydesdale breeders in particular have know for years that you breed high whites to low whites to get the preferred four white legs and a blaze.

My theory on the cream gene, is that it has been present all along, light "golden palominos" have been selected against, because everybody knows that TB's don't have the cream gene. Palominos that have an extra modifier like sooty that darken the coats get registered as bays or chestnuts, not to mention the ones that are hiding behind gray or black.

Now with DNA testing when one of these "golden palominos" pops up it can be verified as a pure TB.