Considering this is a forum for racing and not dressage.... Unless you have done both and I mean as an exercise rider AND a dressage COMPETITOR I really wouldn't say anything about the superiority of your side.
If you have exercised more race horses than you can count, retrained more race horses for performance than you can count AND ridden/competed more performance horses (not just the thoroughbreds) than you can count, then I think you would be a good source on the subject. Exercise riders will always claim they are the real riders and performance riders will always claim their nuts or otherwise, there is no even ground in this subject so why don't we just quit while we are ahead?
As a part of the horse show world, Anky is very well respected but there are things about her training that IS frowned upon. However, she has been the TOP dressage rider in the world for the past ten years, not a lot to argue with that. Salinero is an amazing horse with an understandably big fan club.
Dressage people what do you think?
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helen in FL
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I enjoy all disiplines and i enjoyed the video. My neighbour is a top dressage person. Its a fun barn, they are at the top of their game. They always ask me about the race horses etc.. and they love hearing about the races. The horses in their barn tend to be x breeds as they told me they like them hotter as they are more animated.
I have watched them ride on many occassion & man its so so great to see them in action. They do hack them and have fun with them as well.
I as well love to see the thoroughbreds train in the morning, it can make the hair on your neck stand up. I have reschooled 2 nice thoroughbreds ott but as a previous poster said i had turned them out for a number of months and brought them back slowly. Exsersice riders, dressage riders, show jumoing, eventing.. etc.. they are all disiplines that require talented riders. I can ride a nice show horse but i don't think i could gallop a race horse. Race horses are totally different after they have been let down. Both horses that i reschooled ended up with young girls & both had lovely attitudes. I gave the trainer a video of the one in the hunter ring & he could not believe it. But i could have never ridden either horse when it was at the track, fit and fed to the max!!
I also love watching the Rodeo finals each November from Vegas. I can fully appreciate riders & horses from all disiplines. I never get why people feel the need to bash other disiplines. There are good and bad in all. I love it all!!!
p.s. remember the Irish Thoroughbred Clearly Canadian, ridden by Tom Dvorak . He was a fantastic dressage horse.
I have watched them ride on many occassion & man its so so great to see them in action. They do hack them and have fun with them as well.
I as well love to see the thoroughbreds train in the morning, it can make the hair on your neck stand up. I have reschooled 2 nice thoroughbreds ott but as a previous poster said i had turned them out for a number of months and brought them back slowly. Exsersice riders, dressage riders, show jumoing, eventing.. etc.. they are all disiplines that require talented riders. I can ride a nice show horse but i don't think i could gallop a race horse. Race horses are totally different after they have been let down. Both horses that i reschooled ended up with young girls & both had lovely attitudes. I gave the trainer a video of the one in the hunter ring & he could not believe it. But i could have never ridden either horse when it was at the track, fit and fed to the max!!
I also love watching the Rodeo finals each November from Vegas. I can fully appreciate riders & horses from all disiplines. I never get why people feel the need to bash other disiplines. There are good and bad in all. I love it all!!!
p.s. remember the Irish Thoroughbred Clearly Canadian, ridden by Tom Dvorak . He was a fantastic dressage horse.
Horse Radish
I have been on both sides of the fence.. but Here is a question to help prevoke the minds..
Someone mentioned Seattle Slew was "dressage trained".. Obviously not Grand prix, but the basics.. Why Do you think they did that???
Didnt they buy Slew for something like 17 or 18k? (I could be mistaken).
Soo..
A) They gave him basic dressage training to help him with balance, condition, and prepare him for racetrack training..(Great Idea!)
B) They werent sure of his ability, so they gave him some foundation for another career.. Just in Case (No one had a crystal ball to see that one!)
or
C) MAYBE he was to become a personal show mount if in fact his racing career was a flop??????????
hmmmm
Someone mentioned Seattle Slew was "dressage trained".. Obviously not Grand prix, but the basics.. Why Do you think they did that???
Didnt they buy Slew for something like 17 or 18k? (I could be mistaken).
Soo..
A) They gave him basic dressage training to help him with balance, condition, and prepare him for racetrack training..(Great Idea!)
B) They werent sure of his ability, so they gave him some foundation for another career.. Just in Case (No one had a crystal ball to see that one!)
or
C) MAYBE he was to become a personal show mount if in fact his racing career was a flop??????????
hmmmm
Something else: there is a bit of commotion in Holland at the moment. A Dutchman went to the Irish National championships for showjumping horses and was surprised about how well these horses jumped and cantered/galloped. He told in an interview that the Dutch breed (KWPN) could do with horses with a better use of their hind end and with a more stretched out gallop that can be geared to a small canter.
I know that in the Irish bred horses there is Thoroughbred blood but what type of TB blood especially? In Holland more and more people are complaining about the dressage horses being really active in front but not doing much behind. Are there Thoroughbreds that give a good use of the hind legs?
I know that in the Irish bred horses there is Thoroughbred blood but what type of TB blood especially? In Holland more and more people are complaining about the dressage horses being really active in front but not doing much behind. Are there Thoroughbreds that give a good use of the hind legs?
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vineyridge
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Elles, there is a whole special Irish/UK category of TB sires called National Hunt sires. They are usually flat racers who have succeeded fairly well and are put on top of NH mares to give speed to chasers and hurdlers. Reason for this is that in Ireland and Britain most of the jump racers are gelded.
If the Dutch are interested in what the Irish are doing, look at eventing sires and at French jump racing sires (the French tend to keep more of their jump racers entire), and forget about hurdlers. You want Steeplechasers or eventers who have to use their hind ends to get off the ground.
In eventing, it seems to be a fairly well accepted principle that an advanced horse will be at least 7/8 TB and 1/8 something else. The Irish jumpers, though, will often be 1/2 and 1/2, and have RID lines. However the best eventing sire in the world at the moment was (now dead) a Holsteiner named Cavalier Royale who stood in Ireland and is now called an Irish Sport Horse.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cavalier+royale
If the Dutch are interested in what the Irish are doing, look at eventing sires and at French jump racing sires (the French tend to keep more of their jump racers entire), and forget about hurdlers. You want Steeplechasers or eventers who have to use their hind ends to get off the ground.
In eventing, it seems to be a fairly well accepted principle that an advanced horse will be at least 7/8 TB and 1/8 something else. The Irish jumpers, though, will often be 1/2 and 1/2, and have RID lines. However the best eventing sire in the world at the moment was (now dead) a Holsteiner named Cavalier Royale who stood in Ireland and is now called an Irish Sport Horse.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cavalier+royale
Thread Killer Extraordinaire
Cavalier Royale is not mentioned much on the internet.
However he is mentioned in this topic:
http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/5166.html :
What a coincidence! Cor de la Bruyere is listed in my mare's passport - can't remember if it's her grandad or great grandad. So a French stallion Cor de la Bruyere was used to improve the Holsteiner breed, and then the resulting Holstein stallion Cavalier Royale was imported to Ireland to improve our jumping stock. Exactly! Global warmbloods.
And you're right, it's absolutely vital to keep the indigenous strains going in the mares, and not to be constantly producing near thoroughbreds instead. Indigenous mare + quality stallion = quality horse in my book.
However, I'm not sure there is such a breed as hunter - I think that's more the use the horse is put to. Our hunters in Ireland are either Irish draught or Irish draught x TB usually.
However he is mentioned in this topic:
http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/5166.html :
What a coincidence! Cor de la Bruyere is listed in my mare's passport - can't remember if it's her grandad or great grandad. So a French stallion Cor de la Bruyere was used to improve the Holsteiner breed, and then the resulting Holstein stallion Cavalier Royale was imported to Ireland to improve our jumping stock. Exactly! Global warmbloods.
And you're right, it's absolutely vital to keep the indigenous strains going in the mares, and not to be constantly producing near thoroughbreds instead. Indigenous mare + quality stallion = quality horse in my book.
However, I'm not sure there is such a breed as hunter - I think that's more the use the horse is put to. Our hunters in Ireland are either Irish draught or Irish draught x TB usually.
Though this thread has morphed some and doesn't have anything to do with racing, the other day I was watching the webcam at SA during morning works I bet I saw a bit of riding taking place where the rider was using many of the same tools (thought processes and body mechanics) that dressage employs. Good riding transcends nomenclature. It would be interesting to see Gary Stevens in a top hat and tails doing GP movements. Mike Smith has convinced many a hot mare to consider doing what someone else has planned so he's another who comes to mind. Here we go...a reality show that I would watch...Dressage with the stars?
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helen in FL
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Well not only have I been on both sides of the fence but I've mowed the lawn.
The fact of a dressage training foundation on Slew was part of a small circle of people who see what worth that kind of foundation gives a horse. I am dealing with the problem right now with one of my re-trains who was never told acceptance through the bit or how to properly bend her body. I am surprise about a lot of the things she can do, about how responsive to the leg she is and the fact I can ride her in a rubber snaffle. But the girl can not bend to save her life! Wonderful on the straight aways but ask her to do a balanced 20m circle, putting her rib cage to the outside, reaching under and engaging the hind quarters is the same as asking her to move the heavens.
Can't do a proper leg yield, can't do a straight and balanced canter without hooking her hind end to the inside, normal stuff I am constantly presented with when I take training projects from the track.
I had an exercise rider hop on her for me and her canter looked nothing like it does with me on her. One trainer I am friends with takes the same kind of projects I do but he trains them to go back to the track. He does work them to go on the bit and how to supple their back muscles and use their anatomy to their best advantage. But he is one of very few people I know who does this and he buys his horses from other track trainers who have hit a wall. A lot of exercise riders I have met wouldn't know feel if it hit them upside the head or how to give to the horse when it yields to the bit.
I've seen horses who no way showed what the angles of their body told me they could show under saddle because they are ridden so tense through the back they don't fully engage their pretty movement. I watched a horse walk out of the paddock and was blown away at the 8 or 9 walk then the jockey hopped up and the horse went down to a 4 or 5. Through relaxation you get the performance.
Now I didn't want to say anything because it's obvious what side I bat for, but I just had to say this. I don't claim to be an end all that meets all on the subject but I am close. Give me another five years.
The fact of a dressage training foundation on Slew was part of a small circle of people who see what worth that kind of foundation gives a horse. I am dealing with the problem right now with one of my re-trains who was never told acceptance through the bit or how to properly bend her body. I am surprise about a lot of the things she can do, about how responsive to the leg she is and the fact I can ride her in a rubber snaffle. But the girl can not bend to save her life! Wonderful on the straight aways but ask her to do a balanced 20m circle, putting her rib cage to the outside, reaching under and engaging the hind quarters is the same as asking her to move the heavens.
Can't do a proper leg yield, can't do a straight and balanced canter without hooking her hind end to the inside, normal stuff I am constantly presented with when I take training projects from the track.
I had an exercise rider hop on her for me and her canter looked nothing like it does with me on her. One trainer I am friends with takes the same kind of projects I do but he trains them to go back to the track. He does work them to go on the bit and how to supple their back muscles and use their anatomy to their best advantage. But he is one of very few people I know who does this and he buys his horses from other track trainers who have hit a wall. A lot of exercise riders I have met wouldn't know feel if it hit them upside the head or how to give to the horse when it yields to the bit.
I've seen horses who no way showed what the angles of their body told me they could show under saddle because they are ridden so tense through the back they don't fully engage their pretty movement. I watched a horse walk out of the paddock and was blown away at the 8 or 9 walk then the jockey hopped up and the horse went down to a 4 or 5. Through relaxation you get the performance.
Now I didn't want to say anything because it's obvious what side I bat for, but I just had to say this. I don't claim to be an end all that meets all on the subject but I am close. Give me another five years.
One thing i know forsure is that one of the most essential keys to success for a race horse is to learn to relax in a race.
I once had a horse from Mike Keogh that i reschooled & it had been beautifully ridden and broke. He was hot when he came home from the track but he was lovely to ride.
As well we had Regal Discovery the last few year's (may he rest in peace) & had not been ridden in i bet 8 year's but he was really nice to ride when i first got on him. My friend had him for 6 months & he was very easy.
There are believe it or not some really exceptional riders at the track, like anywhere good and bad!!
I also had one who went around with his head sideways from being ponied so much!!! It was sad actually and took forever to undo.
I once had a horse from Mike Keogh that i reschooled & it had been beautifully ridden and broke. He was hot when he came home from the track but he was lovely to ride.
As well we had Regal Discovery the last few year's (may he rest in peace) & had not been ridden in i bet 8 year's but he was really nice to ride when i first got on him. My friend had him for 6 months & he was very easy.
There are believe it or not some really exceptional riders at the track, like anywhere good and bad!!
I also had one who went around with his head sideways from being ponied so much!!! It was sad actually and took forever to undo.
Horse Radish
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Jenny
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I totally agree with Helen. Relaxation of a horse does NOT come from the mouth it comes from the spine, and bending. Straight horses are not relaxed. But if you can get them bending , then their head comes down and you have a much happier and relaxed horse. something you can work with. I think the european dressage saying is "shoulder in is the key to everything. Oh, buy the way when posting a trot you use the diagonal the horse is giving you, which is the spine. Whichever way the horse is bent is the diagonal you are on. it has absolutely nothing to do with the walls of the arena. use this technique and your horse gets so relaxed in a fraction of the time!!!! 
This is what we do with our racehorses. We claim them then retrain them. It is amazing how much better an athlete they are when they are getting ridden properly. Impulsion from the hind end not pulling themselves along from the front. The big trainers know this stuff. it is the little trainers who are stuck in the dark ages. and only do things they way they were taught 30 years earlier. No chance of swaying them to other ways. Stuck in an rut caused by their own arrogance!!! Its like an older person and technology. Don't want to change, won't change. Well guess what you get,left in the dust!!! Training $2500 claimers forever.
This is what we do with our racehorses. We claim them then retrain them. It is amazing how much better an athlete they are when they are getting ridden properly. Impulsion from the hind end not pulling themselves along from the front. The big trainers know this stuff. it is the little trainers who are stuck in the dark ages. and only do things they way they were taught 30 years earlier. No chance of swaying them to other ways. Stuck in an rut caused by their own arrogance!!! Its like an older person and technology. Don't want to change, won't change. Well guess what you get,left in the dust!!! Training $2500 claimers forever.
Wow, lots of things I can talk about here. I galloped at the track for close to 15 years before moving to Ireland. Galloping is an art form in itself, good riders make it so anyway. Also during my galloping days, I would frequently have a second job either schooling H/J's or dressage horses. Mostly the youngsters I might add. Came to Ireland and only rode out a bit. Had a young mare was trying to sell for a client and decided to do the Future Event Horse League with her. No matter what badies I got on at the track, this was hard work what with memorizing a dressage test and all! You do not want to look like an idiot in front of the Irish either. It was all an eye opener and such good experience.
Now onto the Dutch guy that was looking at the youngsters here. That probably was the RDS and the loose jumping competition for 3yos. Yes there has been a push for more use of TB's in the Dutch horses. The people at the very top realize how important they are. But with the Dutch they will approve suitable TB stallions that have to pass tests. Over here you do not. I breed dutch horses from my National Hunt TB mare. They are all registered with the KWPN. I am not a big fan of the Irish book as there is no uniformcation. They are all over the place. And just as the Dutch need to start using more TB's, the Irish need to get there act together. A lot of the horses in the loose jumping competiton would have been by warmblood stallions standing here out of Irish mares. They would not have been straight half breds or draughts. There are some very nice half breds but with the technical parts of showjumping these days, you need some warmblood for scope.
I currently have 2 youngsters from my NH TB mare and am expecting her 3rd this March. They aren't dumbloods and they are not overly huge, but having said that they are still growing. The gelding will be a straightforward ride and the filly will be one of those who will give you everything she has, but you better be able to ride. She is very special. The gelding is a 3yo and his owner I think wants to do the loose jumping this year and qualify for the RDS. We will turn him over to professionals in the spring. As we are mostly racehorse people, it would be the best for him.
AS for the dressage debate. I actually watched a lovely program last night on Carl Hester. He rides for England. He was using some young horses in his demos. They were amazing and brought along slowly meaning they did a bunch of stretching work and not much collection. They also do jumping and trail rides during the week and aren't stuck in the arena. I love dressage basics because without them you don't have much balance. The same as I hate overused gimmacks like draw reins. They have a time and a place, but trying to achieve your head on your chest without the years of building up the muscles and skeletal system only ruins horses.
The same goes for our racehorse youngsters. They go to their trainer in England having never galloped on a track. They spend their time here learning to ride and I do a bit of flatwork with each of them towards the end. They also go on little hacks around the property. I only want them to have a good foundation so when the training starts, they can handle it a bit better.
This year I plan on starting some dressage lessons as I need some help. I also have a 13yo ex chaser whom I wished we got before he ruined his hock. You have never seen such beautiful movement in a TB. We might try some riding club dressage this year. He has a stunning canter and trot. And the uphill front on him is something you don't often see in a TB either.
Anyway, that's enough rambling. My horses want fed now!
Terri
Now onto the Dutch guy that was looking at the youngsters here. That probably was the RDS and the loose jumping competition for 3yos. Yes there has been a push for more use of TB's in the Dutch horses. The people at the very top realize how important they are. But with the Dutch they will approve suitable TB stallions that have to pass tests. Over here you do not. I breed dutch horses from my National Hunt TB mare. They are all registered with the KWPN. I am not a big fan of the Irish book as there is no uniformcation. They are all over the place. And just as the Dutch need to start using more TB's, the Irish need to get there act together. A lot of the horses in the loose jumping competiton would have been by warmblood stallions standing here out of Irish mares. They would not have been straight half breds or draughts. There are some very nice half breds but with the technical parts of showjumping these days, you need some warmblood for scope.
I currently have 2 youngsters from my NH TB mare and am expecting her 3rd this March. They aren't dumbloods and they are not overly huge, but having said that they are still growing. The gelding will be a straightforward ride and the filly will be one of those who will give you everything she has, but you better be able to ride. She is very special. The gelding is a 3yo and his owner I think wants to do the loose jumping this year and qualify for the RDS. We will turn him over to professionals in the spring. As we are mostly racehorse people, it would be the best for him.
AS for the dressage debate. I actually watched a lovely program last night on Carl Hester. He rides for England. He was using some young horses in his demos. They were amazing and brought along slowly meaning they did a bunch of stretching work and not much collection. They also do jumping and trail rides during the week and aren't stuck in the arena. I love dressage basics because without them you don't have much balance. The same as I hate overused gimmacks like draw reins. They have a time and a place, but trying to achieve your head on your chest without the years of building up the muscles and skeletal system only ruins horses.
The same goes for our racehorse youngsters. They go to their trainer in England having never galloped on a track. They spend their time here learning to ride and I do a bit of flatwork with each of them towards the end. They also go on little hacks around the property. I only want them to have a good foundation so when the training starts, they can handle it a bit better.
This year I plan on starting some dressage lessons as I need some help. I also have a 13yo ex chaser whom I wished we got before he ruined his hock. You have never seen such beautiful movement in a TB. We might try some riding club dressage this year. He has a stunning canter and trot. And the uphill front on him is something you don't often see in a TB either.
Anyway, that's enough rambling. My horses want fed now!
Terri
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Jenny
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I guess this thread was originally about Dressage.
I know people have been referring to the chin on chest debate. But correct me if I am wrong, but is not the face of the horse supposed to be perpendicular to the ground. Not going beyond that? And if so, who is to blame the riders or the judges who in turn give them hight marks for their efforts? It is the chicken and the egg debate. It is the same in the hunters, there are lots of trainers who use draw reigns and get a false frame on horses, and their hind ends are not working at all. But they get rewarded at the shows, and it just perpetuates itself. They end up with very unhappy horses in the end.
I know people have been referring to the chin on chest debate. But correct me if I am wrong, but is not the face of the horse supposed to be perpendicular to the ground. Not going beyond that? And if so, who is to blame the riders or the judges who in turn give them hight marks for their efforts? It is the chicken and the egg debate. It is the same in the hunters, there are lots of trainers who use draw reigns and get a false frame on horses, and their hind ends are not working at all. But they get rewarded at the shows, and it just perpetuates itself. They end up with very unhappy horses in the end.