Full siblings question

[Vindicated]

Now I am not a football fan-not even a little-so while I know who the Manning brothers are (they did an Oreo commerical so I even know what they look like) it is my opinion (I have watched a little football and understand the mechanics of it) that football is the sport least driven by raw talent-it is such a team sport that a fast guy that with guts and little self preservation can excel as long as he can catch the darn ball.
Football seems to be a very learned/coached sport-so I don't think that is a realistic comparison.


In regards to good producing broodmares-it is my opinion that it is learned behavior from the mares and proper conformation that are the biggest factors.
In reality it really comes down to nature vs nurture here...

Shenanigans Bore Ruffian, Icecapade, and Buckfinder-all by different Stallions, ( I could not find a common thread here (before 2 generations back)
Somethingroyal has a few foals of note Secretariat & Syrian Sea by Bold Ruler, Sir Gaylord by Turn-to, and First Family by First Landing (the commond thread here seems to be Nearco)
Weekend Surprise-Bore AP Indy by Seattle Slew & Summer Squall by Storm Bird-(no common thread here really)

These are just high profile cases-
I am sure someone has studied this extensivly but I am still pretty certain that there is alot more to the genetics of speed that we are missing here-and breeding is more luck than anything else

[xfactor fan]

Once the big horse comes along, the fillies may be more valuable as broodmares than racehorses. And they may be unraced to preserve their value--unraced is better than 34-0-0-0.

The same may hold true in part with brothers. Lightly race a full brother and send them off to stud duty. Given the economic realities of the horse business, there may be lots more money in standing a stallion--who can be advertised as brother to so and so, than keeping the same horse in training.

For slow maturing horses, lets say baby brother has a ton of talent, but isn't going to be a brilliant two year old. Does nothing as a two year old, and is rushed off to stud after a couple of starts at three. A failure. But the same horse might have bloomed as a late 3 year old, and had a brilliant 4 year old career.

The point I'm trying to make is that the record for full siblings can be skewed to the negative by several factors, and need to be examined closely before making sweeping statements.

[st. louis kid]

I grew up playing numerous sports, football, basketball, baseball, tennis etc. I wish that were true about football, but my experience is that football was the most difficult of all sports that I played. It is a brutal game and one where your physical limitations are exposed quickly, usually with a bad outcome.
I thought that was a great line that trainer John Nerud had in the excellent Hovdey column, where he says that Dr. Fager's brother just didn't have the same spark as he did. I grew up with 2 brothers in Illinois, John and Jimmy Connors. It was thought that older brother John was the tennis player with more natural talent for the game, but as you know it was his younger brother Jimmy that went on to be a great champion. At an early age you could tell that John had other interests, liked to have a good time, while his brother Jimmy was driven to get better and was a fierce competitor, he just could not stand to lose. While not as talented, he had a fierce passion, a true killer insinct on the court. He had the spark. Who knows what determines this. By the way, brother John is a great guy and is considered a great teacher of the game in the St. Louis area.

[Linda_d]

The Manning brothers both won Super Bowls. They are both sons of a former professional QB.
Very rare example but it does happen.

With horses, sometimes it's a crap shoot but there are mares who just produce very good racehorses no matter to whom they are bred to. (Better Than Honour, etc).

Yeah, but the third Manning brother was a dud on the football field.

[Bunty Lawless]

Just thought of Vice Regent and Viceregal. Viceregal was a better race horse, but Vice Regent was a much better sire. Who would have thunk it?

Good thing someone did!

[vineyridge]

Yeah, but the third Manning brother was a dud on the football field.

Um, not quite right. Cooper Manning was a Wide Receiver who got a full scholarship to Ole Miss, but before he was able to play was diagnosed with some sort of spinal problem that would have paralyzed him if he was hit wrong.

Not a dud. Not a QB, though; and never tested collegiately.

[diomed]

Yeah, but the third Manning brother was a dud on the football field.

Um, not quite right. Cooper Manning was a Wide Receiver who got a full scholarship to Ole Miss, but before he was able to play was diagnosed with some sort of spinal problem that would have paralyzed him if he was hit wrong.

Not a dud. Not a QB, though; and never tested collegiately.

Football genes are football genes.
My brother and cousin both played big 10 football.
My cousin ended up playing for Buffalo and Pittsburgh.
My father was very athletic and came from a family of HUGE, strong dutchmen that all excelled in sports but were also farmers who chose to not pursue college athletics.
Matt Hasselbeck and his brother Tim were/are both professional QBs and their father played pro for NE.
Lofa Tatupu(all pro LB) is a son of pro bowler Mosi Tatupu(NE).

Not saying that a kid out of/or a sibling of a great player will be as good, but it's pretty impressive to just make it into the NFL if you ask me.

Speaking of ....Have any of you seen Barry Sanders kid? Probably won't be as good as dad but that kid is damned good.

[vineyridge]

Primonetta and Chateaugay, anyone?

[Matchemforever]

I think sometimes the success of a sibling is overwhelmed by the success of the other "star" sibling. You could be a good horse, but compared to a great horse or a phenomenon- a good horse will seem inordinately pale by comparison.

The Fair Play/Mahubah cross was repeated five times. Obviously, the most successful was Man O' War. I would put him in the phenomenon category. Every other sibling unless also a phenomenon, was bound to pale by comparison.

Yet My Play won the Jockey Club Gold Cup and the Aqueduct Handicap, came in second in the Latonia Cup Handicap, Saratoga Cup, Merchant's and Citizens' Handicap, and Bayview Handicap.

Masda, his sister, won several minor handicaps (according to Pedigree Query) and the White Plains HiWeight Cap at 4. She was considered wickedly fast but hard to handle.

One, "we won't see his like again" and two fair runners out of five times is not a bad percentage.

When it comes to breeding on, obviously, MOW had the genes to do so where it concerns racing.


Edited to ad:

Gallant Fox and Fighting Fox.
Another brother, Foxbrough wasn't bad.
Half-brother Petee-Wrack.
(In terms of running, perhaps not lasting success in the stud)

From Gallant Fox:
Omaha
Flares

[justinnich]

I'd definitely agree with some earlier posters that temperament can be a huge part of the difference between two full siblings. We've had a pretty good example of that in Blazing Fury and Blazing Dynamo. Fury won the Saranac and finished 4th in the BC Turf in '01 I think it was, and he was an absolute warrior. His ears were always pinned back, and honestly you didn't want to be anywhere near him if you could avoid it. His first few races were pretty terrible, but we gelded him and he broke his maiden at like 40-1 because we finally got him calm enough to accept training. Dynamo is not a bad racehorse (finished 5th in the VA Derby), but doesn't have the killer instinct that his brother had. He gets very easily discouraged. We just gelded him now, two years later in the process than we did with his brother, hoping that maybe he can get focused. Hopefully the gelding will wake him up like it did his brother but who knows.

Each of these are Dynaformers out of our long-time mare Blazing Kadie

[wallinga]

Octagonal and Mouawad (Plus three other group one winning half siblings)
Lonhro and Niello (Ironically both by Octagonal)
Todman, Noholm and Shifnal (Shifnal ordinary racehorse- top sire)
Fine and Dandy, Time and Tide
Sky High and Skyline
Danewin, Commands (completely different racehorses, both excellent sires)
Dansili, Banks Hill, Cacique, Champs Ellyses
Golan, Tartan Bearer (Both runners up in The Derby)
Four Sets by Sadlers Wells:
Opera House, Kayf Tara
Moonshell, Doyen (and Hatha Anna)
Galileo, Black Jack Ketchum
Gossamer, Barathea
Aristotle, Balingarry

there are a heap more, certainly worth a shot. It seems in some cases a member of a pair of talented siblings has a propensity for siring talented siblings.

[Georgerz]

There is an excelent article by Mahubah in the Blood Horse, on the subject:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/NOW/News/Bree ... 49212.aspx

Enjoy!

[Mahubah]

Have to thank you guys. It was this thread that inspired the idea.

Having taken a look at the situation, if I were in the happy position of having a broodmare that had produced a top horse and having the opportunity to go back to the top horse's sire, I sure would. But I'd probably be inclined to sell a resulting colt (since the odds of duplicating the top horse's ability are slim, I'd try to cash in while I could -- even if lil' bro turns out a G3 or G2 winner, the value isn't going to be as high as for the champ) and keep a resulting filly for racing and, eventually, breeding if she had what I wanted in terms of performance and conformation -- the residual value of the latter would be substantially higher.

[st. louis kid]

What a fine article, one must ask if your full brother or sister is as good as prose as you are?

[vineyridge]

Toussaud was a truly great broodmare. The common theme with her was Mr. P or sons of Mr. P., although her good daughter Honest Lady was by Seattle Slew, and it appears that Honest Lady as a broodmare works best with Mr. P tail male.

The clue to that nick has to be somewhere farther back in the pedigrees. It was so consistent that it couldn't be mere coincidence.