I Am Going To Make A Prediction

[dkras]

[quote]Horses that were slaughtered in the US were slaughtered under guidelines approved by the USDA and the AAEP with a USDA veterinarian on site before any animal could be processed.[/quote]

Just because a USDA veterinarian was on site doesn't mean that every horse was stunned effectively. The captive bolt method wasn't designed for horses and it therefore oftentimes doesn't put them in the plane of "surgical" anesthesia that the USDA guidelines call for:

According to the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act of 1978:

"The regulations describe four acceptable methods for producing a state of surgical anesthesia (surgical anesthesia is defined as a state where the animal feels no painful sensations)".

The 4 methods are:

• Chemical (Carbon Dioxide -CO2)
• Mechanical (captive bolt)
• Mechanical (gunshot)
• Electrical (electrical current)

The only two that are applicable to horses are mechanical, both captive bolt and gunshot. I advocate gunshot if slaughter is deemed neccessary.

However, my point is....why do horses even have to go to the slaughter plant? Can't we just euthanize them if they are culls? Why subject them to the transport and the sights, smells, and sounds of the slaughterhouse? To make $300? To save $300?

The problem is; it is hard to get them to die by petting them to death so the bleeding hearts would never be satisfied.

There's the callous attitude that I keep encountering. As an outsider to this industry, I find that attitude repulsive.

[Crystal]

There is nothing callus about that statement. In fact it truly represents a good portion of the "do gooders" out there.. I recently ran into a post of facebook from a horse "rescuer" that said something to the effect of "Horse should be running free eating apples and carrots.." I mean is that the uneducated attitude you want in the industry??

People who have truly educated themselves about the horse industry in general know there is a HUGE over population problem and a disposal method is needed. It isn't wanted, but it is needed. It is just a fact more horses are produced than die or are disposed of each year. So where is the breaking point? It is right here, right now.

People who have large number of horses need to make the decisions between feeding them or their families.. Paying their feed/vet/board bill or their house payments.. It's a case of Steal from Peter to feed Paul. If sending them to auction pays them a few hundred bucks, it was money that wasnt there before and 1 more horse they aren't putting money into. "Getting them off the feed bill".

I'm not recommending slaughter. I have made my opinion known for choosing humane euthanasia if that option is there. However I have that option, some may not. It maybe a different situation for someone who decided to bring a cull to an auction. Not all horses who go to an auction house go to the kill pen. Many groups, stables, riding clubs and individual horse buyers go there to look for a project. Many auction purchases are on the spot by a lot of people who may have planned to go for a tack auction and found a horse they liked.

I went to buy buckets at a auction up in Massachusetts and almost went home with a blue/red roan pinto pony. I'm not sure what happen to him, but I didn't need another horse on my feed bill. I wanted to take care of the horses I already had... so may have made a different decision.

Back to my point. Until Vets cut their prices (farm calls, euth, and disposal) bringing a horse to auction is a fast solution to a ever growing problem. I agree some plants do it in a very barbaric manner, but there are also places that do it efficently and will refuse lame and sick animals and put them down and not process them for human consumption.

Honestly, one idea I heard (which I dont know if it was ever followed thorough with) was a vet who offered a day that sick, old animals could br brought to their clinic and put down and disposed of for little or no cost.

That with the free gelding clinic and free/discount spay/neuter clinic for small animals make the most sense to me.

[casallc]

The poster was trying to state that TB are trash outside the racetrack and that QH were the supreme "all around" breed. I was simply offering a counter perspective that in my experience an INDIVIDUAL TB can be more versatile, since QH's tend to perform true to type and there are so many types...
Sorry if I seemed too far "out" - it hit a real nerve when the poster implied that QH's were just so perfect he doubted any of them ever went to slaughter..

That is not what I was implying at all. In my part of the country people actually use horses’ all day long on ranches and as an all around using horse, thoroughbreds usually won't make the cut. They don't have the make up in conformation or in intelligence. Not everyone is into jumping or that other stuff they do back east. A good horse can do most anything regardless of breed. If you will go back and re read my post you won't find anywhere that I said, implied or otherwise stated:
1. The poster was trying to state that TB are trash outside the racetrack and that QH were the supreme "all around" breed.
2. The poster implied that QH's were just so perfect he doubted any of them ever went to slaughter.

You are wrong on so many levels it is difficult to figure where to start in responding. Your assertion that a QH is unable to compete in the Olympics or jumping is just as wrong as you saying that A TB is better suited for barrel racing. QH’s have competed in the Olympics as well as open show jumping. Mostly you are wrong in your perception of what I was implying. I’d suggest you get the cob out of your butt and stop reading things into a statement that are not there. I simply was pointing out that there are more things that a QH is capable of doing than a TB and more people interested in doing on it – A true statement that no one other than an idiot could deny.

[casallc]

[quote]Horses that were slaughtered in the US were slaughtered under guidelines approved by the USDA and the AAEP with a USDA veterinarian on site before any animal could be processed.

Just because a USDA veterinarian was on site doesn't mean that every horse was stunned effectively. The captive bolt method wasn't designed for horses and it therefore oftentimes doesn't put them in the plane of "surgical" anesthesia that the USDA guidelines call for:

According to the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act of 1978:

"The regulations describe four acceptable methods for producing a state of surgical anesthesia (surgical anesthesia is defined as a state where the animal feels no painful sensations)".

The 4 methods are:

• Chemical (Carbon Dioxide -CO2)
• Mechanical (captive bolt)
• Mechanical (gunshot)
• Electrical (electrical current)

The only two that are applicable to horses are mechanical, both captive bolt and gunshot. I advocate gunshot if slaughter is deemed neccessary.

However, my point is....why do horses even have to go to the slaughter plant? Can't we just euthanize them if they are culls? Why subject them to the transport and the sights, smells, and sounds of the slaughterhouse? To make $300? To save $300?

The problem is; it is hard to get them to die by petting them to death so the bleeding hearts would never be satisfied.

There's the callous attitude that I keep encountering. As an outsider to this industry, I find that attitude repulsive.[/quote]

I disagree with your ideas on slaughter but you seem to be thoroughly brainwashed so I won't try to argue with it.

Why do horses have to go to a slaughter plant? Because there is a worldwide food shortage and getting worse. Horses have no value if they are not being used in some manner, when slaughter plants are open those horses are worth $1+ per pound. That reduces the occurrence of people starving horses because each pound loss is at least $1. The closing of US plants did not lessen the demand for horsemeat; it only gave the profit to Mexico and Canada. The main legitimate concern of animal rights people was the transport to slaughter. The people who did that are now free to do whatever because there is no US slaughter; therefore no enforcement of US laws concerning transport to slaughter. The horses are getting far worse treatment than they ever did before the processing plants closed.
That is not even going into burying all those horse carcasses you want to euthanize. A lot of areas won’t even allow burial of animals let alone large animals. It cost $100 to cremate an average size dog, imagine what it will cost for an 1100# horse. Zoos can’t buy the carcasses in some states because of animal rights activists’ interference and if they are euthanized by a vet the meat is not useable.

The whole problem is "outsiders to the industry", such as yourself, interfering with things they know nothing about.

[dkras]

I know a lot more about it than you do, actually. Unless you are a vet yourself?

[dkras]

The closing of US plants did not lessen the demand for horsemeat; it only gave the profit to Mexico and Canada. The main legitimate concern of animal rights people was the transport to slaughter. The people who did that are now free to do whatever because there is no US slaughter; therefore no enforcement of US laws concerning transport to slaughter. The horses are getting far worse treatment than they ever did before the processing plants closed

.

This I agree with, I've said that repeatedly.

However, the whole "we slaughter horses because of the worldwide shortage of food" is a bunch of bs. In some countries, this may be true. Here, it is certainly not. We don't consume horsemeat here, and I can't imagine that exporting horsemeat to starving people in other countries makes any economic sense. It's considered a delicacy by many in Europe and it can't be cheap to feed people that way.

[casallc]

The closing of US plants did not lessen the demand for horsemeat; it only gave the profit to Mexico and Canada. The main legitimate concern of animal rights people was the transport to slaughter. The people who did that are now free to do whatever because there is no US slaughter; therefore no enforcement of US laws concerning transport to slaughter. The horses are getting far worse treatment than they ever did before the processing plants closed

.

This I agree with, I've said that repeatedly.

However, the whole "we slaughter horses because of the worldwide shortage of food" is a bunch of bs. In some countries, this may be true. Here, it is certainly not. We don't consume horsemeat here, and I can't imagine that exporting horsemeat to starving people in other countries makes any economic sense. It's considered a delicacy by many in Europe and it can't be cheap to feed people that way.

I don't eat horsemeat but I do eat steaks from prime beef. Every frenchman or belgian who prefers horsemeat makes more steak available & cheaper for me. Feeding wothless horses grain does effect starving people who could make bread or something else out of it.

[dkras]

If you eat a lot of prime rib, seems like you should be able to afford euthanasia for your "worthless" animals. I feel nothing but pity for any horse that ends up in your hands. Maybe the horses that you train will stop earning you anything at all....sweet irony.

[photofinish]

If you eat a lot of prime rib, seems like you should be able to afford euthanasia for your "worthless" animals. I feel nothing but pity for any horse that ends up in your hands. Maybe the horses that you train will stop earning you anything at all....sweet irony.

If you are a vegetarian, or one of those vegans, then you can, I guess, decry slaughter of any animal. If you are a carnivore, then you are a hypocrite. The "$300" you so carelessly toss about could be the $300 it takes to feed that family's other horse for a couple . Plus, if they get $300 @ the sale and they save the $300 it may have cost them to have the vet out, euthanize, and dispose of the carass, that makes it $600. The majority of the slaughter bound riding types are ex family trail horses or incorigable suckers. There are some ex racehorses, I will not deny it, but what, exactly is one to do with the servicably unsound? You do realize horses live 3-4x as long as dogs, right? We don't know what to do with all the unwanted dogs, either.

You posted something that made you sound like a vet? If you are then you should have the disposable income to start a sanctuary. All you guys who closed the plants should be responsible for at least 4 or 5 horses apiece. You can pay the "callous, uncaring" owners kill price for them then you can feed them, keep their feet trimmed, keep them wormed, their teeth done every year, until their natural death. You can pay for any injury care they accrue, any illness that befalls them, and stay up with them all day and night of they colic. You can also be the one to hold them for humane euthansia when their time comes and you can dispose fo the remains. You all must keep at least 4 or 5 horses at all times, though. When you euthanize one, you must replace him/her. Fair enough? You all caused this mess, you all can clean it up.

[dkras]

People that are not in a position to feed their horses, nor trim their feet, nor pay for their euthanasia, perhaps, should not have acquired them, nor bred them, etc. Same for any other irresponsible pet owner, dog, cat, whatever. If you have the luxury or the business of a racehorses, $600 is peanuts compared to all the expenses one incurs...How do I know this? Because I have a few horses that I've collected. I even have a rescue or two that I've taken in and paid out of pocket. Yes, it all adds up very, very quickly. There needs to be something set aside, from the horses's earnings, the track, the trainer, or the owner, to pay for the side effects of the industry, which would be throw-away racehorses, their reject foals, their reject yearlings, their dams, all of the many excess horses that are produced as a result.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I don't have a problem with slaughter, if it could be done humanely. But that is NOT the case. Meantime, everyone needs to be responsible for what they bought, what they bred, what they raced, to some extent. That would solve a great deal of the problem. People discard their horses like their tires. They are more than that. Dogs/cats @ shelters are euthanized. It's humane. What happens to YOUR throw-away horses is NOT.

[dkras]

You all caused this mess

And, by the way, how on Earth did I cause all this mess? I have and never had anything to do w/ it. Stop trying to blame someone else for whatever mess there is and do your part to clean up YOUR mess, how's that?

[Crystal]

you all are arguing over spilled milk. It has happened, it's here, and we need to collectively do something about it.

The Arabian industry had a huge over population problem in the early 80s. Like huge-Huge.. Remember getting the Arabian Horse Worlds (equiv- to The Blooh Horse) that were 3.5 inches thick?? More stallions, farms and show horses than the industry knew what to do with. This was also before AI and ET were as common as they are today. So 95% live cover. My family worked for a larger stable in Scottsdale and have told me they would (at times) breed 85 mares a day..

Now Whos' fault is that??? Stallion farms don't demand mares be covered. They offer their stallion services and mare owners come to them.

_SO_

Step Number 1 is controlling the mare population. Take out older mares, mares with genetic problems, the crooked, the crazy, the lame, those who lacked talent/ability, etc and you will be left with a decent crop of breeding mares.

Some will argue back, that Oh So many unraced/unplaced mares have gone on to producer graded stake winners, etc(i.e. My Charmer producing so many before Secretarat)... YES- but how many other have been production fails???

The Failure rate in the Thoroughbred industry is far higher than the success rate. Face it, backyard breeder hold onto a small glimmer of hope that they will one day produce a super star. However, the odds are stacked against them.

Point being, back in the 80s' the Arab industry collapsed and it took almost 20 years for the value for good horses to come back again. It will never be at the heights that it once was. I would never dispute a lot of useful horses went to slaughter. There industry had to get to that point before it broke, and it has taken a long time to recover.

Things that need to change are
1) Regulation for the transport of horses to slaughter
2) Holding Pen/KP care
3) Processing methods and health codes

I'm not even touching on the drug issue with horses sent to slaughter because that leads to another can of worms for a different day.

Not every horse is useful and there isnt always a use for every horse. Not talking breed specific, just in general.

[Georgerz]

Correction: My Charmer is the dam of Seattle Slew, not Secretariat, whose dam is Somethingroyal.

[casallc]

If you eat a lot of prime rib, seems like you should be able to afford euthanasia for your "worthless" animals. I feel nothing but pity for any horse that ends up in your hands. Maybe the horses that you train will stop earning you anything at all....sweet irony.

I try my best not to raise worthless animals. I'll leave that up to morons like you.

[casallc]

I know a lot more about it than you do, actually. Unless you are a vet yourself?

You certainly couldn't prove it by the garbage you've posted - you've already admitted you are an "outsider to this industry" how did you get so damned smart? While I'm not a vet I know more about breeding than most of them and have had many come to me for help.