And thus if the QHs get too inbred due to AI they have an option totally blocked to the TB breeder.
A fast TB can still beat a QH at 440 yards and that's why they can outcross to the Thoroughbreds.
In contrast, if you breed anything to a TB you'll get an inferior product as no other horse breed is as nearly as fast as it.
-llbean
AI, What would happen...
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Ibean
Champion racing QHs run 440 yeard much faster than TBs. What may have you confused is the quarter mile time for a QH starts from a stand still at the gate.
Also. there is a very harsh long distance race out west ever summer and I don't believe a TB has ever won that race. The winner is usually an Ariabian or a part Araibian.
I also think TBs are great, and I don;t think anything can touch them from one-half mile to five or maybe even 10 miles. However, once you get into really long distance racing those small delicate looking Arabians run TBs into the ground.
griff
Remenber the Tb originated with an Arabian stallion crssing onto English cold bloods. Most European countries established Arabian studs so they could furnich Arabian stallions to locals to cros onto their European mares and produce superior war horses. jI believe the Arabians that are now in Arabia were imported back into the country from Europe. Kind of like all the current French wine graps originate from American root staock reimported back into Frace.
griff
Champion racing QHs run 440 yeard much faster than TBs. What may have you confused is the quarter mile time for a QH starts from a stand still at the gate.
Also. there is a very harsh long distance race out west ever summer and I don't believe a TB has ever won that race. The winner is usually an Ariabian or a part Araibian.
I also think TBs are great, and I don;t think anything can touch them from one-half mile to five or maybe even 10 miles. However, once you get into really long distance racing those small delicate looking Arabians run TBs into the ground.
griff
Remenber the Tb originated with an Arabian stallion crssing onto English cold bloods. Most European countries established Arabian studs so they could furnich Arabian stallions to locals to cros onto their European mares and produce superior war horses. jI believe the Arabians that are now in Arabia were imported back into the country from Europe. Kind of like all the current French wine graps originate from American root staock reimported back into Frace.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
griff wrote:Champion racing QHs run 440 yeard much faster than TBs. What may have you confused is the quarter mile time for a QH starts from a stand still at the gate.
Far too many people focus on precocious speed and not enough on producing robust individuals that can actually stand up to the rigors of a serious campaign.
What the hell good is :20 and change speed if the horse snaps his legs and is retired/dead after 3 races?
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
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Boy, oh, boy, this discussion has been going since folks in Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas found out the stallion Peter McCue (bay, 1895) was faster than a baby's poop hitting a diaper and that he had a penis that bred fast QH runners. The shame was it was just a few wranglers with an imagination. They never believed it would come true. That is AI. Hey, listen, first it was AI for the stock horseman and then you know what happened. IN VITRO! Talk about a horse association losing there pants over a barrel. Next, and we're not there yet, the bottom is going to drop out of QH and Paint markets. Remember when an Arabian actually sold for $10,000 on average? I do. It was the 1970's. What would pay for one now?:wink:
FWIW, racing QHs like Dash for Cash and First Down Dash have a large amount of TB blood and the racers often end up doing dressage, showjumping, hunter under saddle and eventing the same way that OTTBs do. But the performance bred horses, doing national level reining and cutting and Western Pleasure etc at the higher levels like at the Worlds and the Congress usually have very little in the way of TB blood in the first three generations. It is pretty rare that an Appendix QH does well in these events and breeders simply don't breed them with that in mind. So the opportunity to breed to a TB isn't an "out" that they would necessarily want in the first place.
Secondly, they may all be QHs but the different disciplines are pretty bloodline specific just like we have turf pedigrees and sprinters pedigrees. So you can't just say--as I've heard--"of course, they can do AI, there are millions of QHs out there". That may be true, but within specific disciplines, the gene pool is much narrower.
Finally the Appendix registry was created in 1950. AI was sanctioned in 1966. There was no connection between the two. (This discussion made me curious enough to look it up.)
Secondly, they may all be QHs but the different disciplines are pretty bloodline specific just like we have turf pedigrees and sprinters pedigrees. So you can't just say--as I've heard--"of course, they can do AI, there are millions of QHs out there". That may be true, but within specific disciplines, the gene pool is much narrower.
Finally the Appendix registry was created in 1950. AI was sanctioned in 1966. There was no connection between the two. (This discussion made me curious enough to look it up.)
I'm sorta wondering what the use of AI in TBs has to do wtih the AQHA Appendix registry? The (inflated) Arab price crash was like the stock market........boom then bust as the fahsion trend passed. The TB auction prices do the same.......have been bubbles where the prices went sky high then it self corrects. Right now it's the warmbloods. When they became the next hot thing everyone paid a fortune to get one from Holland or Germany. Now there are lots of WBs here and the average price of a WB is dropping. They have always used AI since the inception of being popular here so it is not due to that at all. Just market correction of supply and demand. The top, well bred WBs like the top, well bred Arabs and the top well bred TBs all still command a premium price. The lower end of the Arab and market did drop out, like the WBs are doing a bit now.....like the TB auction prices did a couple of years ago.
Sysionby,
While interesting, the lack of cause and effect between those two Historical Events is irrelevant to what Pete was saying and doesn't invalidate his theory that the QH breeders got away with AI without breed choking inbreeding on account of them having a stud book open to another breed.
Look at any top QH and you'll see tons of outcrossing to TB lines...
What comparable stategy could be adopted by TB Breeders??
-llbean
p. s.
Even if performance QH lines A. have no outcrossing to TB lines and B. practice AI to the extent that it would likely be used in the TB (which is doubtful given the lower economic incentives), it's still not necessarily a valid comparision on account of jumping over this and that and prancing around while looking good not being any where near the level of difficulty and stress a TB goes through running in a race.
Therefore a higher level of inbreeding could be tolerated.
While interesting, the lack of cause and effect between those two Historical Events is irrelevant to what Pete was saying and doesn't invalidate his theory that the QH breeders got away with AI without breed choking inbreeding on account of them having a stud book open to another breed.
Look at any top QH and you'll see tons of outcrossing to TB lines...
What comparable stategy could be adopted by TB Breeders??
-llbean
p. s.
Even if performance QH lines A. have no outcrossing to TB lines and B. practice AI to the extent that it would likely be used in the TB (which is doubtful given the lower economic incentives), it's still not necessarily a valid comparision on account of jumping over this and that and prancing around while looking good not being any where near the level of difficulty and stress a TB goes through running in a race.
Therefore a higher level of inbreeding could be tolerated.
And perhaps there was cause and effect between the appendix registry and the allowance of AI as possibly the QH people were wise enough to wait til a source of outcrossing was secured before opening the potentially dangerous floodgates of AI.
Throughout the history of the TB in this Country a lot of genetic material has been preserved by the very stallions who would be put out of commision by AI (see for instance the male line of Broad Brush or the male line of Holy Bull).
Yes, a lot of these stallions who would be put out of business SHOULD be put out of business. But a new technology won't make people any smarter and the same mindset that leads to unproven stallion (see for instance Giant's Causeway, FuPeg, Smarty Jones, etc.) getting the best mares will still rule as King and said King will no doubt use it's new found power to deliver condematory edicts against many stallions who deserve to stand but who can't compete against the hyped up new kids on the block.
A LOT of stallions would be pensioned before their time under a AI scenario.
-llbean
Throughout the history of the TB in this Country a lot of genetic material has been preserved by the very stallions who would be put out of commision by AI (see for instance the male line of Broad Brush or the male line of Holy Bull).
Yes, a lot of these stallions who would be put out of business SHOULD be put out of business. But a new technology won't make people any smarter and the same mindset that leads to unproven stallion (see for instance Giant's Causeway, FuPeg, Smarty Jones, etc.) getting the best mares will still rule as King and said King will no doubt use it's new found power to deliver condematory edicts against many stallions who deserve to stand but who can't compete against the hyped up new kids on the block.
A LOT of stallions would be pensioned before their time under a AI scenario.
-llbean
llbean wrote:jumping over this and that and prancing around while looking good not being any where near the level of difficulty and stress a TB goes through running in a race.
blink
double blink
WHAT?!
You CAN'T be that narrowminded and ignorant on physical stressors.
Anyone who is even inclined to THINK the above, clearly has NO IDEA the stresses put on a horse to rein or jump. And at least reiners and jumpers CARRY REAL WEIGHT DURING THEIR DISCIPLINES unlike these pampered pussies with their 118lb loads.
Sorry, old bean. I like you, you know I like you, but that was just down right STUPID.
To a point the type of stress on a race horse, a jumper and a reiner are different......but no less valid. A race TB has bigger cardiac issues. A jumper huge amounts of stress coming down off a jump onto the one outstretched/leading foreleg (they don't thump down on both forefeet at the same time) as well as the hock/butt needed for takeoff; the reiniers are hard on their hocks to sit/spin/slide. The reason lots o TBs don't make it as jumpers as a second career (talent aside) is that most TBs do not come off the track with sound enough knees and ankles to jump. Chips in knees and ankles catch up with their jumping soundness right quick. Most jumper breeders I know are far pickier about the sufficient bone and front limb correctness on a jumper prospect than a race owner is. While I will not generalize and say all do so MOST of the small race breeders near me breed speed to speed. "As long as they can move those incorrect front legs real fast who cares. " That IS a quote from a breeder near me. If you think AI what is plaguing the TB industry it's breeders like him that are the REAL root of the problem w/ soundness issues.
comohn
I don't worry about small, or large, breeders tainting the TB blood lines with irresponsible matings. If the matings don't work those horses will be relagated to doing the other things things a majority of TBs do. Think about the large number of TBs that are out there and that only a small fration will ever see a race track. That large majority also represents bloodlines that are never seen on this board and are not used for race horse breeding; i.e., the gene pool is not as narrow as some believe.
Of course if these irresponsible matings produce winners they will stay on as breeders, and I'm not sure that's so bad.
griff
I don't worry about small, or large, breeders tainting the TB blood lines with irresponsible matings. If the matings don't work those horses will be relagated to doing the other things things a majority of TBs do. Think about the large number of TBs that are out there and that only a small fration will ever see a race track. That large majority also represents bloodlines that are never seen on this board and are not used for race horse breeding; i.e., the gene pool is not as narrow as some believe.
Of course if these irresponsible matings produce winners they will stay on as breeders, and I'm not sure that's so bad.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
The thing is they do win, at least in his case. We had this discussion one day when he was cutting back on his broodmare herd/downsizing. He was willing to let mares that won 80K go real cheap because they were getting older or difficult breeders. (His mare that won over 300K he did want 70K for though!) I passed on all but 1 because of poor confo/mechanics. The one I liked was perfect until I looked at her pedigree. Really closely bred to my own colt. Ha Ha! That's why I liked her looks 
. Anyway he said he tried breeding correct horses and they didn't win. His ugly ones won so he ceased to care. I really can see his point from a business perspective. I am looking at it from a long term health of the breed perspective.
With the TB gene pool: I think there are lots of the bloodlines that ceased to be racing fashionable out there in the sporthorse TBs. They didn't disappear. A lot of them are the late to mature ones. Jumper folks are willing to let a horse take until they are 4 to mature. Thing is in racing that no one really likes to breed to the ones that have disappeared form the race scene....must be proven runners....so for race they might as well be in Timbucktu. My colt is a nice looking TB. He is an unraced show horse. I doubt too many race mare owners will be beating down my door. His pedigree of Roanoke/Rock Point/Silver Buck is not even so awful for race obscurity.
. Anyway he said he tried breeding correct horses and they didn't win. His ugly ones won so he ceased to care. I really can see his point from a business perspective. I am looking at it from a long term health of the breed perspective.
With the TB gene pool: I think there are lots of the bloodlines that ceased to be racing fashionable out there in the sporthorse TBs. They didn't disappear. A lot of them are the late to mature ones. Jumper folks are willing to let a horse take until they are 4 to mature. Thing is in racing that no one really likes to breed to the ones that have disappeared form the race scene....must be proven runners....so for race they might as well be in Timbucktu. My colt is a nice looking TB. He is an unraced show horse. I doubt too many race mare owners will be beating down my door. His pedigree of Roanoke/Rock Point/Silver Buck is not even so awful for race obscurity.
If the premise is that inbreeding equals unsoundness, I don't agree with the premise. I think that unsoundness is a pretty complex issue having to do with conformation, training and the job you are asking the horse to do. Just because some names in the pedigree are repeated might not have really any bearing on the individual at all.
As for "prancing", the only horse I can think of that might fit that description is dressage and the extreme collection at the higher levels is harder on the hocks than racing is. Cutters goes nose to nose with cows and the only racer I've ever seen coming near that stance is Afleet Alex almost going down in the dirt. Reiners do special stops from a dead run in which they plant their rear end and slide 10-20 feet and then they pivot back on one leg and jump out back into a lope. Pretty tough stuff at the higher levels and at futurities, those horses are only 2 or 3 years old--just like racers.
As for "prancing", the only horse I can think of that might fit that description is dressage and the extreme collection at the higher levels is harder on the hocks than racing is. Cutters goes nose to nose with cows and the only racer I've ever seen coming near that stance is Afleet Alex almost going down in the dirt. Reiners do special stops from a dead run in which they plant their rear end and slide 10-20 feet and then they pivot back on one leg and jump out back into a lope. Pretty tough stuff at the higher levels and at futurities, those horses are only 2 or 3 years old--just like racers.