How can breed to sell operations sustain themselves??

[cng]

BDW:

If you made a balance sheet of expenditures and receipts of all those individuals you mentioned, you would most likely find that their expenditures exceed their receipts. Sure they have had some big horses but when you figure the purchase price, day money, 10% trainer, 10% jock, 28% IRS and lord know how much to various vets - there is not a hell of a lot left. The farms do make money sometimes but they make it off of the owners like everyone else. You can make money pinhooking if you know what you are doing but racing is a losing proposition from buying yearlings. You can also lose money pinhooking if the market drops suddenly. I remember in the 80's, at a 3 day sale, a guy paid me $1500 to take his tickets on 5 mares that he thought he bought right but prices kept falling. Had one of them not produced a stakes winner a few weeks later I would have been the fool for doing it. There was a mass exodus of people bailing out of the business in the mid 80's when you could no longer deduct your losses in horses against your profits in your business. It is coming again.

[Sysonby]

If I wanted to learn how to play football, I'd ask a football player--not someone who sits on a couch, drinks beer, and watches a lot of games on TV even though I'm sure the latter person would think his opinions are very valid.

Sorry I can't help myself..

http://thefuntimesguide.com/audio/Bud_L ... anager.mp3

When people post that their experience with sym stables and breeding and racehorses are the equivalent of managing real stables and bloodstock and runners with real money at real risk, it's the first thing that comes to mind.

[jennywho]

Please explain to me how the "in" group controls what is bid for your horse.

Are you trying to say that a buyer will not bid on your superior horse because you are not a part of the"in" group but will bid on a lesser horse because it was raised by a member of the "in" group?.

griff

Griff in response, in WA we have two sales a year, one in September and one in December. The September sale is referred to as the "select" yearling sale because a group of people get together and decide which horses get in based on pedigree alone, conformation is not taken into account.

A majority of the sales committee members are owners of the biggest breeding farms in the state as well as stallion syndicate managers. There is no way that the selection is unbiased when you get to the bottom half of the horses nominated. The number of breeders in the state is small enough that everybody knows who owns which mares and it comes down to, I'll support your yearlings getting into the sale if you'll support mine.

Not only is the weather better in September for attracting buyers, but a good amount of KY pinhooks are entered drawing buyers from CA and Canada. It's also held during our meet meaning that all of the local trainers are present to buy as opposed to the Dec sale when many are off at their winter racing venues.

I agree wholeheartedly that the breeding and conformation of a horse has much more merit than who bred/raised it, but when your pool of buyers is so drastically different between the two sales, it truly does make a difference if you are part of the "in" crowd or not.

Hope this makes sense.

Dave C, I loved your post.

[summerhorse]

It kind of sounds like every breed (and non breed) really have the same problem. Too many "cheap" (to be kind) horses and not enough racing owners to buy them.

I think more people would be willing to race their no sales or skip the sales altogether if it were only affordable. But it's almost like if you can afford to breed a decent horse you HAVE to sell it if you ever want to breed another.

If you can afford to train them yourself off your own farm then you might stand a chance! But then your foal will kill itself for sure!

[Hold Your Peace]

There's nothing wrong with selling 4 of your 5 yearlings for a 20% loss each if that 5th one sold for a 600% gain. That's just the way it works. One really good one pays for the others and then some (you hope). Racing works the same way.

But I also prefer to see breeders who never breed more horses than they could conceivably afford to put into training themselves.

A large number of breeders can't or won't commit the "real" money to keep and race whatever doesn't sell for a decent price at a yearling sale and they'll dump them for next to nothing. You know the expression - "Scared money never wins".

And you don't even have to be commited to racing them forever, break them out and get their maiden broke and you can sell them privately for really big prices sometimes.

But for those who go into panic mode when their yearlings look like they might not sell, and they let them go for next to nothing because they aren't prepared to start forking out the real money to put them into training to resell as a 2yo or to race, I have little sympathy.

If you don't believe in your product enough to put a financial strain on yourself and to take the risk to put them into training then why should anyone else believe in your product?

You gotta love these ads for 3yos (usually obscurely bred) who haven't even been put into training and they say "He's going to be a great racehorse we believe". If they really believed that they'd be taking out a second mortgage on their house and putting them into training themselves.

[Jenny]

Hi guys.
I agree with what is being said here for sure. I would also add that it is difficult to be in the in group. We have the select sale and a few people look at the pedigree and conformation and decide if they are to get into that sale. There is no way that it is unbiased. Some of these horses are getting into the select sale and have not black type in 2 to 3 dams!!! But they are owned by the big farms and friends of the in crowd or people doing the inspections. How can we compete?

The other point is: We race everything we breed. We try to anyway. Some of them have not made it as racehorses and get re trained for show horses. It costs a lot of money. People think it is cheap because we train our own, but that is far from the case. With the cost of feed, bedding, hay, exercise riders and vet work. Crazy!!! Most of the time it is a loosing proposition. Untill you get that one "Big Horse". Which we may have now. a 3 yr old homebred who will have his first start in a couple of weeks. I will keep you posted on the Stable Watch thread. Maybe i will actually make money this year.!!! lol

[ratherrapid]

keep us posted under "racing", so we can see it when it comes up! i continue to be mystified by all these "vet" expenses. My vet does teeth, shots, coggins, lasix. that's it.

[DDT]

bdw

I do not believe that any of the examples you posted have made a "mockery" out of horsemen in the horse racing industry. What makes you think that any of the listed entities show a profit in their racing, breeding or selling of horses? Operations such as Coolmore, Claiborne or Lanes End make their money standing stallions, not through racing, breeding or selling horses. The thoroughbred industry is unique in a business sense. Following a successful business plan for computer sales does not mean that following that plan will be successful with horses, just as following a successful plan for selling fast food does not mean it would be as successful selling computers. You listed Robert Lewis as a person who transferred his success from the brewery business to the horse racing business, but, even though Mr. Lewis had many successful race horses, he put in many millions more than he got out of the thoroughbred industry, how does that translate to success?


DDT

[Gallop58]

Re: Jenny's "Some of these horses are getting into the select sale and have not black type in 2 to 3 dams!!!"
and Re:Jennywho's "There is no way that the selection is unbiased when you get to the bottom half of the horses nominated."

So the issue is believed to be placement in regional select sales vs regional open sales? I have heard this argument alot, but rarely see examples, haven't really seen too much of it myself, and believe it to be wholely over stated. Sure there are shenanigans, but if your not factoring that in, well, what can I say.... . Please post hip numbers and sales for horses that you think were misplaced, or ones that shouldn't have been in a select sale, or pedigree page of your horse that didn't get into select and you suspect you've been jobbed. I think this forum would do an excellent job of dissecting the placement.

Show me the horses

and re: Jennywho's "I'll support your yearlings getting into the sale if you'll support mine." This is so prevalent at every sale, that if you are not factoring this into your breeding decisions, then I don't know what to say. So far the best barometer I've found is, if you aren't having folks inspecting your yearling prospects when they are weanlings, out at the farm, the likelihood of being a successful yearling sales profit center is pretty low. But that's just me....

I like all the posts so far about the brutal realities. Wish I had absorbed some of them earlier before I paid for my own education the hard way!

[Dave C]

I like all the posts so far about the brutal realities. Wish I had absorbed some of them earlier before I paid for my own education the hard way!

Reminds me of a piece of cowboy logic I read a few years back: "A very few people learn by reading, a few people learn by watching, the rest of us have to piss on the electric fence for ourselves".