Problem is overbreeding....and irresponsibility

General on-topic discussion.

Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster

User avatar
pfrsue
Grade III Winner
Posts: 1079
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:42 pm
Location: You can't get there from here.

Postby pfrsue » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:43 pm

ratherrapid wrote:my take is that a "successfull" OTB is much more than adopting horses out. everyone I've "adopted" out or attempt to sell--two months later they call me to take it back. there is simply zero demand for retired race horses. that's the reality. any retirement program is doomed to failure if the goal is to place horses in long term non-neglect homes. Unlikely to happen for any particular horse, and would guess if anybody ever bothered to trace these "adoptees", dogs and horses, the results would be other than pretty.


The greyhound group I've worked with has a very high percentage of successful adoptions. They do home visits upon application, they are very big on educating potential adopters about the breed, including special needs (like always in a fence or on a lease), and they work to match up personality of dog with personality of adopter/family. If there's a problem, the organization WILL take back a dog, but they try to help the owner work through the problem first. And they do follow up after adoptions. It's a lot of work for an all-volunteer group, but it seems to be pretty successful.

I'm not naive enough to think that dogs don't fall through the cracks, and I know there are a lot more OTTBs than there are homes for them. But, I think OTTB adoptions are probably much more likely to be successful when they go through groups who make a start on letting down and working with the horses to see what their aptitude really is, who try to be careful about matchmaking the horses with the adopters, and who educate and work with the new owners until they're really comfortable with the horse and vice versa.

Fantasy, mostly, but there are probably some groups out there who have decent success rates.

jellac
Grade I Winner
Posts: 1542
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:46 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Postby jellac » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:37 am

FYI _ Following up on this story:

REMEMBER ME RACEHORSE RESCUE, a 501(c) organization operated by Dallas and Donna Keen has been successful in placing all 9 of the Broodmares purchased at Round Mountain auction except one:

Karitsas Punch -

Below are some stats on this mare - an excerpted description of Karitsas Punch from Remember Me's website. There is also a photo of this mare at the Remember Me Rescue's website, a link to which is provided in this thread above in an earlier post.

"14-year-old Karitsa's Punch

a daughter of Two Punch bred to Asmussen Horse Center stallion Littleexpectations. She in not in foal.

Quarantine time is over and she is ready for adoption to an approved non breeding home."

AGAIN - I say KUDO's to the breeders, farms, thoroughbred retirment organizations and individuals who worked in collaboration to find these mares good homes and a better outcome! Well deserved and well done!

User avatar
briarhalo
Allowance Winner
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:21 am
Location: Ontario

Postby briarhalo » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:00 pm

ratherrapid wrote:
pfrsue wrote:
ratherrapid wrote: I recall the greyhound adoption programs at the Woodlands. Just fails to work. U ended up with greyhounds stranded in some grandma's living room.


The best dog I've ever owned in my life raced at Woodlands and came to me via a re-homing organization. :) The main greyhound groups are very good at placing the dogs successfully. At the time, there was apparently a lot of dogs coming out of Woodlands, so several were transported by volunteers to other states where they had a better chance of adoption...which was how I ended up with Simon. Thoroughbred re-homing and rescue organizations could probably learn a lot from the greyhound folks.

Jellac, kudos to you for probably the best post I've ever read at PQ. Excellent points, well thought-out, and took the sensationalist OMG! factor out of the situation. Lots of heartfelt common sense too. Thank you.


my take is that a "successfull" OTB is much more than adopting horses out. everyone I've "adopted" out or attempt to sell--two months later they call me to take it back. there is simply zero demand for retired race horses. that's the reality. any retirement program is doomed to failure if the goal is to place horses in long term non-neglect homes. Unlikely to happen for any particular horse, and would guess if anybody ever bothered to trace these "adoptees", dogs and horses, the results would be other than pretty.


Have to say, I now have just gotten my 7th, OTTB and love him. However, I have been extremely successfully with all but one of them previously on the Hunter show circuit. Sadly, the last one I had, was here as a companion, riding horse only. End Sweeps Advance, whom I have just sadly had to put down as he raced for a very, very long time....from Allowance horse to low level claimer. It took it's toll.

I am so thankful that there are trainers out there that are willing to try their horses in other jobs and not just send them down the road. I have also bred my own, quite successfully as well. The one I have just acquired, came from Florida.....would love to know more about him, landed in Fort Erie, just doesn't want to run and is only 3. But again, going to be one hell of a nice show horse.

User avatar
sulphurfire
Allowance Winner
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:33 pm
Location: southwest louisiana
Contact:

Postby sulphurfire » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:10 pm

They lost Karitsas Punch to colic on the 30th
"The rewards, whether for winning or for losing, offer almost irresistible temptations to race a two-year-old more times than are good for them." John Hay Whitney at the annual testimonial dinner in October 1963 for the Thoroughbred Club of America

Sylvie Hebert
Restricted Stakes Winner
Posts: 778
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:19 pm
Location: canada

Postby Sylvie Hebert » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:51 am

You say that there was no race fixing??Why how do you know? You "fixed" them???And as far as breeding I was a breeder in the 80's and I got Federal League from a rescue 10 years ago,he died of renal failure a few years ago. I really believe he should have been a stallion instead of those "broke his leg or non starter or defective high priced" studs a lot of people use,,,and we end up with cripples for generations...Sadly he only bred a couple of mares mostly paints and quarters and a single TB mare and I know exactly where they are and what they do...I stopped breeding years ago because of the very fact that there is overbreeding and cheap horses all end up you know where.And all the babies that I personnaly produced I know where they are and the only one I sold far in Texas and lost track thanks to a lady here on pedigreequery I found in Washington state.
I never smoked or drank or use any drugs but let me ask you a question:If you smoked in the 80's and stopped for your health does it make you unable to tell people that smoking is not good for health and they should stop???Or does it make smoking okay???
And note that I said "overbreeding" and irresponsability....there are responsible breeders even big ones,some I befriended on facebook and in person that really try to do the best for their horses going to pick them up at auctions,paying their way,retiring them...but they are still a minority...sadly
The sport and industry survive not only because of the champions that are remembered forever but also because of the losers that are so easy to forget...

User avatar
Sysonby
Breeder's Cup Contender
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:27 pm
Location: California

Postby Sysonby » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:46 am

Sylvie you know that people can look up your posts from years ago.

This is you from 2004-- NOT the 80s as you claim

Under "your opinions please"
Cosmetology is going to be bred to Honour Attendant...


http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... ight=#8327

And 2005

i have a 2004 colt by Honour Attendant,sending mare back to him and a second mare too.


http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... highlight=

That was found on about 60 seconds worth of search and you certainly were willing to recommend Federal League to all of us great unwashed breeders who, according to you, are engaged in greed and insanity.

zinn21
3rd Year Sire
Posts: 3307
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:23 pm

Postby zinn21 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:46 am

Sylvie you know that people can look up your posts from years ago.

This is you from 2004-- NOT the 80s as you claim

Under "your opinions please"
Quote:
Cosmetology is going to be bred to Honour Attendant...


http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... ight=#8327

And 2005

Quote:
i have a 2004 colt by Honour Attendant,sending mare back to him and a second mare too.


http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... highlight=

That was found on about 60 seconds worth of search and you certainly were willing to recommend Federal League to all of us great unwashed breeders who, according to you, are engaged in greed and insanity.


Many drug addicts do become drug counselors..

JimbleBrimble
Starters Handicap
Posts: 503
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 3:15 pm

Postby JimbleBrimble » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:24 am

Sylvie Hebert wrote:You say that there was no race fixing??Why how do you know? You "fixed" them???And as far as breeding I was a breeder in the 80's and I got Federal League from a rescue 10 years ago,he died of renal failure a few years ago. I really believe he should have been a stallion instead of those "broke his leg or non starter or defective high priced" studs a lot of people use,,,and we end up with cripples for generations...Sadly he only bred a couple of mares mostly paints and quarters and a single TB mare and I know exactly where they are and what they do...I stopped breeding years ago because of the very fact that there is overbreeding and cheap horses all end up you know where.And all the babies that I personnaly produced I know where they are and the only one I sold far in Texas and lost track thanks to a lady here on pedigreequery I found in Washington state.
I never smoked or drank or use any drugs but let me ask you a question:If you smoked in the 80's and stopped for your health does it make you unable to tell people that smoking is not good for health and they should stop???Or does it make smoking okay???
And note that I said "overbreeding" and irresponsability....there are responsible breeders even big ones,some I befriended on facebook and in person that really try to do the best for their horses going to pick them up at auctions,paying their way,retiring them...but they are still a minority...sadly



(sigh) You probably stopped breeding years ago for reasons connected with your 0-0-0 training record from 31 starts and/or the $1862 your starters earned.

Furthermore, if you smoked in the 1980's and "stopped for your health", you probably now know that stopping didn't do much for your health. Your pocketbook, sure, as $1862 doesn't buy a lifetime supply of cigarettes (or Timothy hay).

And we say there was no race-fixing because you and only you had to make up blatant LIES when trying to woo others here into believing your non-sensical accusations..

Something hints to me that your training career isn't over. Remember the one you brought back after eight years on the sidelines? Maybe you could find one of those champions you trained in 2007 and serve it up in a graded stakes in a couple of years.

As for Federal League, one need only glance at his pedigree to tell that he wasn't likely to be much as a stallion. You don't see many great stallion prospects in $3000 claimers at Finger Lakes. Federal League ran ten times for a $3000 tag at Finger Lakes and managed but a single win among them. Perhaps you spotted his potential when he debuted for a $12,500 claiming tag in Philadelphia?

Sylvie Hebert
Restricted Stakes Winner
Posts: 778
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:19 pm
Location: canada

Postby Sylvie Hebert » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:32 am

Honour attendant did not belong to me but a client...who paid $5000. for it while your great trainers and owners paid $190,000. for him and crippled him on a hotwalker. Federal League was not a stakes horse but a very well made sound of mind and limbs horse and I respected him a lot as you should.He managed to run 172 times and managed to be in the 3 first positions more than 50% of the time and that is not with any fancy care...He bowed as a 4 yo and stopped only a couple of months...Then at 13 yo he became a rodeo horse and still worked sound for years.How many of your expensive hothouse babies can do that? An owner with a barn of 10 Federal Leagues would not be drained of his money and have a lot of fun,may be he would not run scared of horse racing after a couple of years. Being an owner means throwing lot's of cash and not having any fun to show for...This is a number game? Yes number of horses you go tru and cripple, and numbers in the bank account of gullubile owners. Most of my horses ran under other people names...and I have seen first hand what kind of mafia run the racetracks...Keep your BS, horse racing is a bus going full speed towards a cliff driven by a suicidal maniac and full of people drunks by their own ego...And again don't take things out of context you stupid egocentric morons,I did not say nobody should breed,only not breed carelessly and irresponsibly.I have been picking up your "garbage""skins""cheap claimers""cripples" full of dope and steroids for years...I call them "horses" No, I am not a great fancy trainer,never pretended to,but at least when I look at myself I am not repulse by my soul...Instead of spending your time and energy trying to drown me (I swim pretty well thank you, and note I don't hide under a screen name) work on really saving your industry and take care of your horses....
The sport and industry survive not only because of the champions that are remembered forever but also because of the losers that are so easy to forget...

Sylvie Hebert
Restricted Stakes Winner
Posts: 778
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:19 pm
Location: canada

Postby Sylvie Hebert » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:35 am

Oh and as for Federal League pedigree he was inbred Hyperion,and devoid of any FB Louis is so fond of talking about....???the key to his durability and throwing flashy colored paints....Who knows...
The sport and industry survive not only because of the champions that are remembered forever but also because of the losers that are so easy to forget...

User avatar
karenkarenn
Breeder's Cup Winner
Posts: 2145
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:01 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Postby karenkarenn » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:13 pm

Rock Talk is the answer to that. There are many Qh here that have him in their pedigree and that are sound sons of guns. !!

JimbleBrimble
Starters Handicap
Posts: 503
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 3:15 pm

Postby JimbleBrimble » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:26 pm

When one's career as a horse trainer spans 1 1/2 decades and numbers zero wins, zero seconds, and zero thirds, there isn't much left to context interpretation.


That you are now giving unsolicited advice on breeding, racing, and training, along with erroneous reports on "race fixing", is a lot more of the problem with racing than any part of any solution.


If you want to help racing at all, why not offer a detailed list of reasons why you returned a horse to the races after an eight-year layoff (so nobody will ever be dumb enough to do so again).

Sylvie Hebert
Restricted Stakes Winner
Posts: 778
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:19 pm
Location: canada

Postby Sylvie Hebert » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:50 am

To JimbleBrimble
What is your real neme and record of anything by the way...You have had this thorn in your side for me for years.What is your problem mister incognito???
Do you get mad at thinking all my horses are fed and taken care of and I do not send them to the killers??
Does it make you mad I do not race under my name and still make a living?
Or may be because I do not need to suck anybody's wallet till dry to look good?
Or when I say stop breeding irresponsibly you feel threaten???
Simply you ARE one of those,aren't you???

So I ask:if you are soooo good,and superior why hide???

If this horse ran it is because he was REALLY sound and fit,and the one footing the bill wanted him to run,no other reason...
In fact I think this is the only reason a horse should compete,Sound,Fit and the OWNER wants it to run,or jump or else.Because the OWNER pays: not you sir...
My only concern is the horse wellbeing and my owner satisfaction,because he foots the bill,he is the client,and the client is always right. My responsibility is making the client happy and keeping the horse sound...I never had a breakdown since 1993,and never sent a horse to the killers since 1993...can you say the same? If you had any horses,evidently....
I never ran a horse under another person name if it was a "dud",this is why I can always find a trainer to run them.And shut up...
The sport and industry survive not only because of the champions that are remembered forever but also because of the losers that are so easy to forget...

Sylvie Hebert
Restricted Stakes Winner
Posts: 778
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:19 pm
Location: canada

Postby Sylvie Hebert » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:54 am

And by the way,who do I offered unsollicited advice on breeding or training????
The only thing I ever said and this is not advising but pleading:Stop breeding irresponsibly...Stop breeding unwanted and unsound horses...(you do not really want me to keep going do you?)
The sport and industry survive not only because of the champions that are remembered forever but also because of the losers that are so easy to forget...

Sylvie Hebert
Restricted Stakes Winner
Posts: 778
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:19 pm
Location: canada

Postby Sylvie Hebert » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:57 am

And after 4 pages you attack the one who posted the link...not everyone after thet???Hummmm
The sport and industry survive not only because of the champions that are remembered forever but also because of the losers that are so easy to forget...