AI, What would happen...

[skeenan]

Cutters goes nose to nose with cows and the only racer I've ever seen coming near that stance is Afleet Alex almost going down in the dirt.

True, cutters are catty and have "cow sense" that has been bred into them. However, (and this is *not* a "look how great my horse is" comment- an observation only!) I've seen Bell tear up our paddock in a way that impressed the heck out of me... she can turn, pivot, dodge and hunker down as good as any Quarter Horse I've watched. I'd LOVE to try her out barrel racing or pole bending... sure, she probably wouldn't best any QH worth his salt head to head, but she'd show 'em something... athletic horses are athletic, and sometimes it's the "breed stereotypes" that keep some people from trying them out in a new discipline.

I'll use the Morgan as an example: if you look around, there has definitely been a change in the breed "type" over the years. There's the "saddleseat" type, and the "hunter/sporthorse" type (like mine). The sporthorse variety looks Warmblood and very different from the saddleseat variety, and yet all Morgans still all originate from the same bloodline(s). It has nothing to do with outcrosses. It's the picking out of certain individuals' body type and characteristics, and perpetuating them. There are some very QH-looking TBs, so I bet if someone bred specifically for that body type for a few years, it would be very interesting to see what you'd get... and they'd still be all TB.

I will concede that I don't know how sound Bell would stay, putting that kind of stress on her joints over time (even without having been raced, as her TBs legs are not built the same as a QHs), and cows would probably scare the *%^& out of her...

[camohn]

Tho off topic for the AI thing that is true about the type. Function follows form and vice versa. Many of the TB sprinters have a QH "look" to them even now. Shorter coupled, big butt etc. I have 2 mares. One is an APHA but she is 85% TB and look every inch a halter QH. No one ever believes she is a high% TB. She has 4 crosses to Nearco in her pedigree. He does throw a shorter coupled type. I have a full TB mare. She is 15.1H and also looks like a QH. Whenever folks see her I get "what a cute QH mare!". Small size, big butt, short coupled, wittle baby doll head. And just as much a TB as my tall leggy colt.

[skeenan]

I know, my thoughts weren't as concise as I'd like, as I had to get ready for work...

I guess my point is, is that a lot can be done *within* a breed- AI doesn't limit the current gene pool and isn't the reason the TB breed would fizzle out without the introduction of new blood– the intent of the breedings is what limits it. The Morgan industry (as opposed to the racing industry) took one breed and diversified it based on a specific desired "type"- Lippitts (oldstyle), saddleseat, sporthorse, etc. Racing TBs have ONE desired "type"- to be fast. You touched upon it by saying that there are many TBs that don't even reach the track, or aren't used in race breeding. They're culled out of the racing gene pool.

Racing TBs is a one-intent breeding purpose, which requires very specific breeding qualifications, limiting the available individuals that fit the bill.

Everyone keeps breeding speed to>speed to>speed, so that eliminates many TBs from being desireable, and concentrates the gene pool to a select few that perpetuate the racing TBs... and the crosses start compounding themselves with inbreeding and fewer available outcrosses (those outcrosses would have to be successful on the track for most people to decide to breed to them, despite that it might be beneficial)... AI wouldn't have anything to do with it...

So that was what I was trying to get at!

[Camish]

jumping over this and that and prancing around while looking good not being any where near the level of difficulty and stress a TB goes through running in a race.

Anyone who is even inclined to THINK the above, clearly has NO IDEA the stresses put on a horse to rein or jump. And at least reiners and jumpers CARRY REAL WEIGHT DURING THEIR DISCIPLINES unlike these pampered pussies with their 118lb loads.

I couldn't agree more!

[bcassidy]

WOW---I am having a tough time keeping up with some of the logic in these responses. I may have to reread them again when I am in a better frame of mind. To me it boils down to one simple issue---Will AI allow a stallion to breed more mares than he would have if live cover was used. While this is an important issue, because the purist wouldn't want a single stallion to have unnatural influence over the breed, it could easily be avoided by limiting the number of contracts that could be serviced through AI. No one said every mating had to be performed via AI. In this age of shuttling and stallions which cover 150 mares in a single season, I think this argument would be mute anyway, but I would still like to err on the side of caution. Limit a stallion to 100 live covers and 50 AI contracts. Better for the stallion, better for some mare and foal owners, better for the geographically challenged---especially the international markets, and really great for the breed in the future.

[Lucy]

Limit a stallion to 100 live covers and 50 AI contracts. Better for the stallion, better for some mare and foal owners, better for the geographically challenged---especially the international markets, and really great for the breed in the future.

I could be mistaken, but didn't the AQHA try to set a limit, only to have that shot down in court?

[Sam]

Limit a stallion to 100 live covers and 50 AI contracts. Better for the stallion, better for some mare and foal owners, better for the geographically challenged---especially the international markets, and really great for the breed in the future.

Great in theory, but as the QH people found out, they don't have the right to refuse registration.

Limiting it like you've suggested is something that would have to be done by the individual stallion owner, it's not something the Jockey Club could legally enforce and not everyone would do it.

[griff]

Why not establish a national stud and have it run by majority rule. Every member of the jockey club, not matter how much or how little real knowledge and/or experience would have an equal vote.

You know; "one man, one vote"; make thatl "one person, one vote". No restrictions on voting at all. No one would have to demonsarte or prove knowledge, experience or success in the field. All they would have to do is register and then vote on what we can or can not do with our horses.

Wait, this is starting to sound familar.

griff

[camohn]

Sam is right ........the AQHA legally had such issues shot down. I think what you could do is refuse to allow doses to be split. Must use 1 whole collection per mare. Of course there will be a few folks that would abuse that..........but there are a few folks that abuse the rules now too.

[bcassidy]

Sam/et al--Thanks, didn't know there would be legal issues. I thought the jockey club could impose such a rule but after thinking about it, that could be really dangerous, to cite an extreme, what if the JC said a stallion should only cover 10 mares in a year? It's ridiculuous I know but I can see where there would be problems with the JC trying to set a limit that everyone would be happy with. Now I probably understand the current rule, the live cover does pose a natural limit of some kind, AI would be very difficult if not impossible to control. It's a shame because I do think without this one problem AI is a much better alternative. Can anyone come up with a way to limit the number of breedings for a stallion, that would be legal, good for the breed, fair to the owner and acceptable to the JC?

[bcassidy]

Seasonby--I think the premise is that AI allows stallions to be mate with substantially more mares than natural cover ( in the standard bred world---I believe there are stallions with 250+ AI contracts) therefore, as with most supply and demand equations, increased volume usually lowers the price as fewer stallions sire most of the foals. More foals by the same stallions reduce the weanling, yearling and two yr old prices because there are so many offspring by certain stallions to choose from. The purists would also say that the breed is suffering because so many of their horses are being produced from such a limited number of stallions. If there ever was a genetic abnormality (say something that affected soundness) that were to go undetected for awhile, by the time it became apparent there would be hundreds of foals already on the ground---a huge threat to the breeding population for generations to come.

[griff]

First, no one would be forced to use AI if it is approved.

Second, the QH, Standardbred, Warmblood and Arabiian breeds all seem to thrive on AI.

griff