So you want to be an owner...

[ratherrapid]

deleted.

[cewright]

Jane wrote

I don't get the big scandal.

No scandal....just the fact that a trainer and a vet knowingly took advantage of newcomers to the sport for the sake of their own individual profit and greed. As new people into the sport, we needed someone to hold our hand through the process and not someone who was more interested in putting their hand in our pockets!!

We were too trusting and naive. We didn't know that the sport operated in this way. That's why this sport is in big big trouble.

Thanks Jane. Now I know that

in this game things go wrong more than they go right.

This is to be expected and I shouldn't say anything about it. Let's let this continue so others can be "taken".

I am going to take a contrarian view here. I am not so sure you were taken, and based on the information given I have not seen any unethical behavior. The biggest problem you reported other than the horses were slow at two was that one was a cribber. So far as I know cribbing, while certainly a stall vice, does not slow a horse down. Further, your original post said:

We didn't want to claim a horse but we were looking with something with potential to go on to do something big.

You went to a trainer, expressed this desire and she tried to help you. It did not work, you lost money, and now you are crying about it blaming everyone but yourself. Unless you are one of the helpless rich born with a hefty trust fund, you and your partners must have some business sense to have accumulated the wealth necessary to fund this endevour. It appears you left this good sense at the door when you entered into this venture. I doubt you would have purchased a business without doing extensive due diligence, risk analysis, and market research yet that is what you did here. You may now feel you made a poor choice as to whom you sought advice from, but that does not make them unethical. You bear the responsibility for your bad decisions!

Chuck

[Jane]

My point exactly. Looking to put the seller on a LIST because the animals you agreed to buy did not live up to your expecations is just silly. We have all bought horses that didn't work out, some never even made it to the races... I do not blame the sellers, consigners, sales companies... not even myself, usually it's just the way the cookie crumbles. Sometimes you get lucky and other times, not so much.

I also can't help but wonder if these horses had worked out and won a bunch of races would you still want to tar and feather this vet?

It's still a great game, if you want to try again then maybe get in on the CTHS ownership group or attend the seminars Woodbine puts on to attract and educate new owners. There are lots of excellent first class trainers at Woodbine who I'm sure could do a good job for you. Julie Coulter at the CTHS office could provide you with this type of info @ (416) 675 – 3602

[Sparafucile]

Thanks Chuck for setting me straight. You are right. I should stop crying and blaming everyone. It’s my fault. I should have followed your advice and performed the extensive due diligence, risk analysis and market research that you suggested. I an now willing to bear the responsibility for my bad decisions, like you say.

Unfortunately, Chuck, a vet, who wanted to be paid in cash and never got around to giving us a bill of sale, ripped us off!!!

[AscotStud]

The CTHS ownership groups have had a less than stellar record, unless you want to just put more money into something for the sake of spending money.

Like someone else said, look into West Point, Dogwood or some of the bigger US syndicates, their mark-ups are pretty big, but they are not shady at least and you will have a chance to run in a big one and enjoy ownership much more. At least with their mark-ups your getting a quality horse and training, not the shaft.

[Jane]

Who on earth pays anyone $40,000 in CASH and then not ask for a reciept? How did you transfer ownership without a bill of sale?

[AscotStud]

How did you transfer ownership without a bill of sale?

I'm guessing they were both unraced, so all they had to do was sign the papers over. No bill of sale needed to change ownership if the papers were floating around waiting for a sap to take them. The only time they really ask for a bill of sale is when ownership changes after the papers are already on file in the racing office

[Sparafucile]

Jane…

You claim that there “are lots of excellent first class trainers at Woodbine”. Let me tell you about one of them who was my trainer. You may know him. He looks like a ‘troll’ and enjoys raising ducks. He is usually ranked among the top trainers at Woodbine.

We had a promising two year old and we approached him to train for us. We were instructed to send the filly to Keeneland to train for the winter and we received glowing reports from the conditioner down there.

She was shipped to Woodbine and probably had 17 workouts before she raced. (A little excessive I think). After her first week of training, we never received any news. We were never even informed if she had arrived. I decided to call. What a mistake!! I was instructed that I was NEVER to call him. He said that if I didn’t hear from him then everything was alright. I was told that I would receive weekly updates via email. (The emails contained information that I had already received from Equibase with respect to workouts).
When I went up to watch her first race, he was nowhere to be seen. The assistant trainer spoke to me briefly before the race. No one spoke to me after the race. I had to wait for another email the following week.
She ran greenly in her first race but he felt she should be entered in a Stake Race. On the day of the race, as I was pulling into the parking lot after a two hour drive, I received a call from the Horsemen’s Bookkeeper informing me that I had to pay the entry fee. He never informed me about it.
It was a tough spot for a second race and she didn’t run very well. After a few weeks of soul searching, I decide to send her to another trainer at Woodbine who immediately noticed that she had EPM. I ended up bring her home.
Woodbine has excellent trainers? Maybe... I thought I had one of the best. I got all this excellent treatment as an owner and the excellent care for my horse for only $90 a day even when she spent time at the training center.

[Jane]

As it happens I can't stand that trainer either, the only up-side to him is that his Assistant Trainer is a good horseman and a nice guy. I am truly sorry that you have had such bad luck and you are right, a new owner is up against it when they start off not knowing the players. I guess since I have been an owner/breeder since 1985 I have a pretty solid knowledge of who the real horsemen are and who the pretenders are (and there are way too many of them). I can't believe any trainer would tell an owner not to call him but knowing the above mentioned guy I don't for a minute doubt your story, shocking as it is.

In the over 25 years that I have been in this game I have had only 4 trainers, I was happy with all but one. I have never been overbilled, ignored, taken advantage of... certainly I have had loads of bad luck along with some fantastically great times that I hope to some day replicate.

Hopefully your day will come and you tell the chicken man to never call you again when he comes begging to train you latest stakes winner.

[Fair Play]

As it happens I can't stand that trainer either

Get in line . Unfortunately, some of the trainers responsible for ruining new owners in this business are a lot better at attracting business than training horses. Get someone with a better track record with horses or that your friends like.

I have also never heard of a trainer who doesn't welcome calls from owners. You want to keep them up to speed on what is going on so they get more out of the game than invoices. Many owners are busy, successful business people who are hard to find.

[wilf]

Well Spara once again you should have stopped the bleeding when you were informed not to call by having someone with a shank show up the next day and move your horse. Throw enough dirt against the wall and some is sure to stick so keep your head up and keep trying. I am sorry that I will not be returning to Fort Erie otherwise I would have loved to meet you. Oh yes ,that vet is still a weasel.

[AscotStud]

I think I know the Stakes filly you are talking about, did she break her maiden fun at the Fort this year, for $5k or $10k? I now know the other two horses too, they were not worth the purchase price.

The last story helped me figure out who she was, I remember seeing a horse that looked out of place in the M Stakes of 2007 by the trainer.

[imnumberjuan]

Spara,

I am sorry to hear of your experience.

My associates and I feel the need to bring more people into the sport is a must (I am a babyfaced 32 - people at a stud farm this weekend that I visited were "pleased" I was young - I felt the conversation with them was well thought out - they answered all my questions openly and honestly, and I know most of their claims are easily verified.)

Through the thread I got the feeling that like I have heard on more than on occasion is the sport is full of crooks. I take a look at my job and can confidently say the crooks are proportionate in the "real world" as to the racing industry. One of my biggest customers operates a 30 million a year operation - but you can trust the as far as you can throw them. We had issues collecting on payables - I told them I had a forklift and would be more than willing to take what was owed - be it my product or not. Amazing how a cheque materialized within minutes. Another potential customer had their credit application refused. The owner tried to bluster and bully a charge account. A year later he was wanted on fraud charges, owing approximately 5 million to the town I live in - everything from office supplies to vehicles and construction equipment. Come to think of it his secretary has a sordid tale invloving his supplying cocaine as long as she filled paperwork a certain way.