Speaking of very rare unusual pedigrees: Post the rarest:
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Reading the name "Commander in Chief made me remember a funny cartoon I once read in Reader's Digest, I guess. An explorer appears all tied up in a cannibal's caldron and it's being asked by the cook cannibal in charge: "what is his profession". The smiling guy proudly responds that he is a newspaper "Chief Editor". The cannical then plainly replies to him: "Oh, don't worry, soon you will be Editor-in-Chief".
Not as rare but still a little different
Kinda wish I'd have posted this pedigree much earlier in the string, when the unusual pedigrees weren't all non-Phalaris.
He is not black-type, and more sporthorse than racehorse. He started 135 times from 1995 to 2002, earning more than $100,000.
He came off the track sound, sane, rideable & still very flexible, with uphill build and movement. While he does go to Nasrullah & Native Dancer, he's otherwise an outcross to the current U.S. breeding stock.
As I say, in general more sport-horse than race horse [although I'll probably still try to send at least one of his offspring to the track, because if they've got his work-ethic, they'll try for sure]. For what it's worth, here he is:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sir+juli+go
He is not black-type, and more sporthorse than racehorse. He started 135 times from 1995 to 2002, earning more than $100,000.
He came off the track sound, sane, rideable & still very flexible, with uphill build and movement. While he does go to Nasrullah & Native Dancer, he's otherwise an outcross to the current U.S. breeding stock.
As I say, in general more sport-horse than race horse [although I'll probably still try to send at least one of his offspring to the track, because if they've got his work-ethic, they'll try for sure]. For what it's worth, here he is:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sir+juli+go
Speaking of extremely inbred horses, you may want to browse the following case. The dame was a stakes winner while the sire was simply, lets call it, unique!
http://www.pedigreequery.com/stewarts+star
http://www.pedigreequery.com/stewarts+star
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Guest
I'm only familiar with a few bloodlines outside of the US and fewer bloodlines in GB and FR so I am left in the dark.
I know I need to do more research outside the bloodlines of my home country, but how do I go about that? http://www.tbheritage.com doesn't give me all the information I seek on top horses/sires/etc of different eras throughout the world. Speaking of which...are there any other reliable websites?
Outside of all the systems and numbers (I apologize as I haven't completely figured it out) what else constitutes a rare pedigree - a particular crossing? I've heard there are some crosses that are undesirable.
Where do you find all the information people seek? I've googled but it never shows me what I'm looking for.
Again, my apologies and thanks in order.
I know I need to do more research outside the bloodlines of my home country, but how do I go about that? http://www.tbheritage.com doesn't give me all the information I seek on top horses/sires/etc of different eras throughout the world. Speaking of which...are there any other reliable websites?
Outside of all the systems and numbers (I apologize as I haven't completely figured it out) what else constitutes a rare pedigree - a particular crossing? I've heard there are some crosses that are undesirable.
Where do you find all the information people seek? I've googled but it never shows me what I'm looking for.
Again, my apologies and thanks in order.
Jorge wrote:Speaking of extremely inbred horses, you may want to browse the following case. The dame was a stakes winner while the sire was simply, lets call it, unique!
http://www.pedigreequery.com/stewarts+star
I think they were just trying to increase the chance of getting a white foal. Looks like it didn't work.
Nu
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Gunter Prischl
- Suckling
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 10:50 pm
- Location: Queensland, Australia
Brushup wrote:I'm only familiar with a few bloodlines outside of the US and fewer bloodlines in GB and FR so I am left in the dark.
I know I need to do more research outside the bloodlines of my home country, but how do I go about that? http://www.tbheritage.com doesn't give me all the information I seek on top horses/sires/etc of different eras throughout the world. Speaking of which...are there any other reliable websites?
Outside of all the systems and numbers (I apologize as I haven't completely figured it out) what else constitutes a rare pedigree - a particular crossing? I've heard there are some crosses that are undesirable.
Where do you find all the information people seek? I've googled but it never shows me what I'm looking for.
Again, my apologies and thanks in order. :wink:
As things stand now, just about any horse going back in tail-male to the Godolphin Arabian or the Byerley Turk are rare. These days 85 to 90% of all TB's are going back to the Darley Arabian.
The Godolphin is still available via Man O' War, but the Hurry On line is virtually extinct.
The Byerley Turk is still available via Tourbillon, but The Tetrarch line is virtually extinct.
Anybody interested in reviving these lines wants to make sure, that Sire and Dam are compatible. Once that is achieved, the progeny should be tougher, have more stamina and even increase their speed.
You are lucky in the States for having Bertrando standing in CA (he is a direct descendant of Man O' War) and he should be able to produce some outstanding foals - as long as Sire and Dam are compatible.
Even the Darley Arabian line of Carbine (foaled in New Zealand, raced in Australia and stood at Stud in the UK) is now (virtually?) extinct. Back in the 1960's some direct descendants of his were still around in Australia and Canada, but I can't find a single Sire going back to him in tail-male nowadays. This is a great pity, because this line had toughness in spades. As I have specialized in TB genetics, I have matched several Stakes winners for other people around here. Several earned well in excess of a Million Dollars on the track. In each and every case I ensured very good compatibility.
If anyone is interested in finding out more about genetics or actually matching mares to stallions, please don't hesitate to contact me on [email protected] - I have the pedigrees of all registered US TB stallions available.
pedigreematching done at
marematching.com.au
marematching.com.au
The importance of knowing how to employ a sabino mate is well illustrated with this STEWARTS STAR cross:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/stewarts+star
The importance here is to employ two sabino mates. In the case of STEWARTS STAR, it seems probable his dame was not sabino, in spite of being a full sister to CLARENCE STEWART. In fact all of CLARENCE STEWART's progeny were not white, save for the sole case of WHITE FLIGHT. Why? you may ask. Answer: because the mares didn't help substantially regardless of the fact that CLARENCE STEWART was a white sire. On the other hand, when you compare the success achieved by AIRDRIE APACHE, who was not "white" per se, you reach the conclussion that Dalene's expert eye and wise selection in sabino pedigrees was medular.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/stewarts+star
The importance here is to employ two sabino mates. In the case of STEWARTS STAR, it seems probable his dame was not sabino, in spite of being a full sister to CLARENCE STEWART. In fact all of CLARENCE STEWART's progeny were not white, save for the sole case of WHITE FLIGHT. Why? you may ask. Answer: because the mares didn't help substantially regardless of the fact that CLARENCE STEWART was a white sire. On the other hand, when you compare the success achieved by AIRDRIE APACHE, who was not "white" per se, you reach the conclussion that Dalene's expert eye and wise selection in sabino pedigrees was medular.
Inbreeding/linebreeding
Hallo,
if you want to see an interesting example of inbreeding/linebreeding have a lok at the mare Fantasie (y Masetto). She has shows an amount of Inbreeding/linebreeding to Festa, Grave and Gay (an Old American Family!) + Alveole and Macht. She is the 5th dam Of Ferrari (by Alkalde), Now standing in America, but as Sportshorse stallion.
Last seasons topfilly Gonbarda (by Lando) for nowaday standards is another example of linebreeding. She is 4x5x5x5x5 Birkhahn and her
4th dam Goldhenne (=Golden Hen, nomen est omen) is 1x2 inbred to the 3/4 brothers Birkhahn/Bürgermeister (by Herold). But most interestingly Gonbarda belongs to Phalaris damline and she shows further linebreeding to Sunray. On the other hand I realeased Germanbred horse were a long not crossed with Phalaris. The first introduction was by Bunch Grass (by Phalaris) and Bramouse, the dam of Birkhahn.
In the case of of extinct sire lines I can point out Gay Crusader's Sire line was extended by Imi-Imperial (via Hungary) to Philipo (Prince Ippi, German Derby winner 1986), but unfortunately he died as 4 year old in training.
Best regards, Bettina
if you want to see an interesting example of inbreeding/linebreeding have a lok at the mare Fantasie (y Masetto). She has shows an amount of Inbreeding/linebreeding to Festa, Grave and Gay (an Old American Family!) + Alveole and Macht. She is the 5th dam Of Ferrari (by Alkalde), Now standing in America, but as Sportshorse stallion.
Last seasons topfilly Gonbarda (by Lando) for nowaday standards is another example of linebreeding. She is 4x5x5x5x5 Birkhahn and her
4th dam Goldhenne (=Golden Hen, nomen est omen) is 1x2 inbred to the 3/4 brothers Birkhahn/Bürgermeister (by Herold). But most interestingly Gonbarda belongs to Phalaris damline and she shows further linebreeding to Sunray. On the other hand I realeased Germanbred horse were a long not crossed with Phalaris. The first introduction was by Bunch Grass (by Phalaris) and Bramouse, the dam of Birkhahn.
In the case of of extinct sire lines I can point out Gay Crusader's Sire line was extended by Imi-Imperial (via Hungary) to Philipo (Prince Ippi, German Derby winner 1986), but unfortunately he died as 4 year old in training.
Best regards, Bettina
FYI - I've just been made aware by a correspondent at my 'Byerly Turk Community (see link below) that a branch of the Byerly Turk sireline - not descending from Tourbillion - is still, by a thread, alive and well in India via the "intact" sons of Sir Bruce(IND) '82; possibally Cassis(IND)'84; Enrico(IND)'84 - All sons of Everyday, by Jet Stream by Alizier and on and on back to The Tetrach and so forth to Castrel.
This database indicates that Sir Bruce has at least these three non-gelded sons in India:
Full Frontal(IND);
Little DragonIII '01 and
One More TimeII(IND)'01
Take a look at the pedigrees of these TBs and you will see some really 'old' lines - one of the mares I looked up was linebred to Bromus the only winning foal of Cherry, and she went on to be the dam of Phalaris. Amazing by how by such a slender thread the predominance of Phalaris bloodlines has come through to the breed today!
This database indicates that Sir Bruce has at least these three non-gelded sons in India:
Full Frontal(IND);
Little DragonIII '01 and
One More TimeII(IND)'01
Take a look at the pedigrees of these TBs and you will see some really 'old' lines - one of the mares I looked up was linebred to Bromus the only winning foal of Cherry, and she went on to be the dam of Phalaris. Amazing by how by such a slender thread the predominance of Phalaris bloodlines has come through to the breed today!
As things stand now, just about any horse going back in tail-male to the Godolphin Arabian or the Byerley Turk are rare. These days 85 to 90% of all TB's are going back to the Darley Arabian.
The Godolphin is still available via Man O' War.......
Captain Countdown is tail-male to the Goldolphin Arabian. He stands in Texas and I have a new colt by him. It is, like you say, through Man O' War......
The Godolphin is still available via Man O' War.......
Captain Countdown is tail-male to the Goldolphin Arabian. He stands in Texas and I have a new colt by him. It is, like you say, through Man O' War......
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Gunter Prischl
- Suckling
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 10:50 pm
- Location: Queensland, Australia
There is (or was) also another well-bred sire-son of Everyday in India (The Tetrarch tail-male line).
Ivanoe (IND) 1983
Found several other sons of Everyday, but no progeny where recorded for those. Also, as I don't know the tracks in India, It's hard to say - but winning times seem to be extremely slow by Australian or US Standards.
Ivanoe (IND) 1983
Found several other sons of Everyday, but no progeny where recorded for those. Also, as I don't know the tracks in India, It's hard to say - but winning times seem to be extremely slow by Australian or US Standards.
pedigreematching done at
marematching.com.au
marematching.com.au
Here's one who falls under that "fun with inbreeding" category
http://www.pedigreequery.com/cutlass+fax
He's the half-brother to one of my mare's dams. He was unraced, but has managed to sire a few stakes winners.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/cutlass+fax
He's the half-brother to one of my mare's dams. He was unraced, but has managed to sire a few stakes winners.
I don't have low self-esteem. I have low esteem for everyone else. ~ Daria
This discussion got me to start looking at pedigrees and it is really sad to see how some of the old lines have been lost. In going back and seeing where everything began I was wondering if Thoroughbreds can be bred back to an Arabian. Also seeing as how Standardbreds came from and excellent line of Thoroughbreds can that be bred back???
lisa
lisa