My horses Mother?

[Nancy T]

Just curious, wouldn't a DNA prove at at least whether she is sired by Abstract? that would narrow it down a bit.

[BJ]

"Lets work something out if you want a copy of the 2003 paperes we will see what we can do".

Thanks,
Jordan

Okay...

All the Dams of fillies on Abstract's 2003 progeny report have been checked w/the JC. Only one was *reported* died. But that wouldn't match because it was reported died in 2005 (Slick Boots). She was bred by Michael Stafford.

So...I would focus in on the oldest mares, because they would be the "least useful" to the type of person who would send a mare AND foal to the killers.

Those would be:

Pie Rise (1986) [Unnamed, No Color Given, 2003 filly);

Judy Sunshine (1986) [Abstract Cartel, 2003 dk b/ filly];

Bon Genre (1982) [Abundantly, 2003, b filly];

Have you called Ricci Rathyka yet?

I *might* be inclined to rule Pie Rise out because of the fact Pie Rise was a Chestnut. And your mare is a Bay or Dk B.

I would call Ricci R. and just ask her straight out if your filly/mare could be the one she bred. See what she says. Let us know.

Get talking to Ricci R. out of the way and we can try to find the owners of the other foals, if she gives info to RULE OUT Pie Rise.

BJ

[Jolene]

You can rule out Judy Sunshine. Abstract Cartel is currently in H/J training and available for sale.

[Linda in TX]

I would focus in on the oldest mares, because they would be the "least useful" to the type of person who would send a mare AND foal to the killers.

Those would be:

Bon Genre (1982) [Abundantly, 2003, b filly]

BJ, how many 2003 fillies did Abstract sire...?

Abundantly, Abstract's 2003 filly out of Bon Genre, was consigned to a WA TB sale in December, 2004, and RNA'd by Peterson Bloodstock.

[Jolene]

I would focus in on the oldest mares, because they would be the "least useful" to the type of person who would send a mare AND foal to the killers.

Those would be:

Bon Genre (1982) [Abundantly, 2003, b filly]

BJ, how many 2003 fillies did Abstract sire...?

Abundantly, Abstract's 2003 filly out of Bon Genre, was consigned to a WA TB sale in December, 2004, and RNA'd by Peterson Bloodstock.

Abundantly just ran at Stampede Park 2 weeks ago, FYI.

I think that sometimes in life, we come to "dead ends" for a reason. This filly cannot be raced, and should not be bred for racing purposes, so having her registered with the Jockey Club really isn't necessary (and exceedingly costly for a teenager).

I think Jordan was given this filly to care for her and make her a nice saddle horse. I think he should do just that.

[Linda in TX]

This filly cannot be raced, and should not be bred for racing purposes, so having her registered with the Jockey Club really isn't necessary

Now why should she not "be bred for racing purposes....?" Granted, Abstract is a cheap stallion, but his pedigree certainly isn't bad --> By Danzig out of Forli's daughter Far from La Troienne's family. "1-x" in a heartline position is never a bad thing to have.

If Jordan's filly is out of Pie Rise, that mare had produced six winners from six named foals through the end of 2003. Pie Rise is from a solid California family with roots to the E. B. Johnston and Rex Ellsworth breeding programs. Pie Rise is half to California Champion Filly Our First Delight, belonging to the family of Flying Choice who has a gazillion black-type runners under her name, including Yes It's True, currently a member of the Three Chimneys' stallion roster.

I've read posts on this board from folks thinkin' they can get a race horse out of lesser mares...

If we eventually learn that Jordan's filly is not a daughter of Pie Rise, but outa something Gawd Awful, then you made your point, and I agree with you. Until then, there's no reason to not encourage Jordan to continue working on verifying his filly's paternity.

Bottom line, if Jordan's filly is out of Pie Rise, and he can afford the $2,500 or so to register her, then he just might net a useful broodmare prospect for a modest sum.

[MichaelThomson]

This filly cannot be raced, and should not be bred for racing purposes, so having her registered with the Jockey Club really isn't necessary

Now why should she not "be bred for racing purposes....?" Granted, Abstract is a cheap stallion, but his pedigree certainly isn't bad --> By Danzig out of Forli's daughter Far from La Troienne's family. "1-x" in a heartline position is never a bad thing to have.

If Jordan's filly is out of Pie Rise, that mare had produced six winners from six named foals through the end of 2003. Pie Rise is from a solid California family with roots to the E. B. Johnston and Rex Ellsworth breeding programs. Pie Rise is half to California Champion Filly Our First Delight, belonging to the family of Flying Choice who has a gazillion black-type runners under her name, including Yes It's True, currently a member of the Three Chimneys' stallion roster.

I've read posts on this board from folks thinkin' they can get a race horse out of lesser mares...

If we eventually learn that Jordan's filly is not a daughter of Pie Rise, but outa something Gawd Awful, then you made your point, and I agree with you. Until then, there's no reason to not encourage Jordan to continue working on verifying his filly's paternity.

Bottom line, if Jordan's filly is out of Pie Rise, and he can afford the $2,500 or so to register her, then he just might net a useful broodmare prospect for a modest sum.

Simlpy put, for not more than $1000, you can a mare nicer than, or equal to, Pie Rise (but younger). Look at OTOBA's website. Sales results are posted there. And then there's always Barretts one state down.

This filly should not become a broodmare. If Jordan would like a nice broodmare, I am sure any of us could help him locate one, and add a LFG breeding to a proven Oregon stallion, for $2500 (or less).

[BJ]

BJ, how many 2003 fillies did Abstract sire...?

9 fillies

[Linda in TX]

This filly should not become a broodmare.

Once again, why not...? If the filly is by Abstract out of Pie Rise, there's nothing about her pedigree to preclude her from being bred. Her distaff side is strong enough.

Now I know nothing about Abstract. If the horse is ugly and misshapen with glaring conformation defects that prevented him from racing, and he's passing that along, then I agree -- none of his daughters should be bred.

In fact, if that's the case with Abstract, then he ought to be gelded. Is that the case with Abstract...? If that isn't the case, and he's as pretty as his pedigree, then perhaps he's being judged unfairly. Someone has already suggested Abstract is "not a broodmare sire." Of course he isn't -- his oldest daughters are only eight, and he has few of them to boot.

If Jordan would like a nice broodmare, I am sure any of us could help him locate one, and add a LFG breeding to a proven Oregon stallion, for $2500 (or less).

Now, why would you think that would be any fun...?

You're thirteen.
You were expelled from the womb with a Racing Form in hand, and always dreamed of having a race horse of your own.
Then one day you're given a thoroughbred filly of unknown parentage that no one else wanted.
You're challenged to figure out the dam of the filly, so you go online to solicit help from adults (only to learn that many who respond have holes in their head).
After school and during the summer you mow lawns, muck stalls, wash cars to make money to support your filly, and save up to register her - if and when you ever discover who her parents really are.
You've worked hard to unravel the mystery of your filly's parentage, and finally after many, many months you've confirmed she really is by Abstract out of Pie Rise.
You register your filly (who by this time you've trained to walk, trot, canter, perform flying changes, spin, slide stop and back like a stock horse without wearing a bridle. You sleep with her in the barn).
By spring 2008, you plan a mating for her (to get that race horse you always dreamed about).
In 2009, the filly no one wanted (and everyone told you not to breed) gives birth to a handsome colt.
You raise the colt, break him, leg him up, then hook up with a licensed trainer (without any holes in his or her head) who is willing to help you realize your dream.
In 2012, your colt clobbers the competition in the PoDunk Downs Derby, Orgeon.
In 2013, a movie is released about your odyssey: "Dreamer 2: The Sequel."

See the difference MichaelThomson...? Your way is boring, and sure as hell won't get'cha a movie deal.

[MichaelThomson]

Ha ha...Nice little story Linda, let me summarize: breed anything to anything for anything might happen...

And why not make her a broodmare? The excessive amount of money to register this filly. That's just one reason why not.

I am all about dreams, for I own broodmares and racehorses. I just recommended a logical and far less expensive way. That's all.

[Nancy T]

the dam was taken to slaughter and the filly was given away...yeah real value there, why breed MORE cheap animals that will end up in a bad way...arggg

[MichaelThomson]

the dam was taken to slaughter and the filly was given away...yeah real value there, why breed MORE cheap animals that will end up in a bad way...arggg

Good point.

And just because you can lose your money even with the most logical and
thought-out breeding plans, doesn't mean you should breed a mare merely because you own her.

[UmmYeah]

<snip>

Now, why would you think that would be any fun...?

You're thirteen.
You were expelled from the womb with a Racing Form in hand, and always dreamed of having a race horse of your own.
Then one day you're given a thoroughbred filly of unknown parentage that no one else wanted.
You're challenged to figure out the dam of the filly, so you go online to solicit help from adults (only to learn that many who respond have holes in their head).
After school and during the summer you mow lawns, muck stalls, wash cars to make money to support your filly, and save up to register her - if and when you ever discover who her parents really are.
You've worked hard to unravel the mystery of your filly's parentage, and finally after many, many months you've confirmed she really is by Abstract out of Pie Rise.
You register your filly (who by this time you've trained to walk, trot, canter, perform flying changes, spin, slide stop and back like a stock horse without wearing a bridle. You sleep with her in the barn).
By spring 2008, you plan a mating for her (to get that race horse you always dreamed about).
In 2009, the filly no one wanted (and everyone told you not to breed) gives birth to a handsome colt.
You raise the colt, break him, leg him up, then hook up with a licensed trainer (without any holes in his or her head) who is willing to help you realize your dream.
In 2012, your colt clobbers the competition in the PoDunk Downs Derby, Orgeon.
In 2013, a movie is released about your odyssey: "Dreamer 2: The Sequel."

See the difference MichaelThomson...? Your way is boring, and sure as hell won't get'cha a movie deal.

Is that how you see it? Cuz this is much more what it looks like to me:
You're thirteen
You're absolutely obsessed with Afleet Alex. You continually post messages to a racing and breeding forum inquiring about how you could acquire a mare in foal to your favorite horse.
Eventually you get (are given?) a three-year-old filly.
This is your in.
It doesn't matter that you don't know who the dam of this filly is, or that this filly has never been registered with the Jockey Club (let alone raced).
THIS IS YOUR IN.
By hook or by crook, this filly will be bred to Afleet Alex, and she will deliver a foal.
Then you will have a piece of your favorite horse ever! It's even better than collecting baseball cards!
There's only that same issue of the two grand to register this filly, and all of costs associated with a pregnant mare (it doesn't matter that she's still a filly). It doesn't even matter if you even break and race the resulting foal. You have a piece of AFLEET ALEX!!!
Oh, and then there's that other small issue of the forty grand stud fee too....

[Linda in TX]

the dam was taken to slaughter and the filly was given away...yeah real value there, why breed MORE cheap animals that will end up in a bad way...

There's nothing "cheap" about a mare that produced six winners (through 2003) from six named foals who is half sister to a regional Champion from a family with a history of consistently producing winning race horses.

The mare had no control over her fate, nor did her fate reflect on her "quality."

[austique]

Gotta agree with Linda here. The mare (if she is indeed the dam of the filly in question) is a decent solid type. Plenty of better bred horses have ended up at the killers for various reasons having nothing to do with their quality.

What's amusing is that everybody is arguing over a filly that probably can't be registered. There's the matter of a service certificate and even trying to find out for sure who the filly's dam is cause the Jockey Club is not going to run DNA against every mare in creation. The other thing everyone seems to have missed is that Jordan wanted to register the mare in performance horse registries and never at any time mentioned breeding her to Afleet Alex.