WHY CANT A BLUE HEN REPRODUCE A BLUE HEN?

[louis finochio]

One of the reasons is that for certain genetical reasons a female cannot pass her sex genes to her daughters, only to her sons. On the other hand the male can pass his sex genes to both his sons and daughters. Therefore, for purely biological reasons, it would appear that the Female's principal function (genetically) is to act as a conveyance for the passing
on of the racial qualities of the Male. How many Blue Hens have reproduced Blue Hens ?

[jellac]

Louis - I think you may have it completely reversed here. IT is the female that can pass on her "X" chromosomes to both her sons and daughters. All things being equal - which in nature they seldom are, exactly, it is a 50:50 shot as to which of the "X" chromosomes any given offspring inherits. IF the mare is a "Blue Hen" daughter she may inherit only one of her dam's "X" chromosomes, the other comes from "Daddy". Perhaps some "Blue Hen" mares have one "X" chromosome that is more prepotent than the other and her ability to pass on her own productive capabilities becomes a roll of the genetic dice so to speak. Having said that I thought that one of the distincitions of these so-called Blue Hens was that they often founded several generations of greatness or a family. Wouldn't they do this through their daughters? I'm thinking of La Troienne and Bourtai to name a few that come to mind quickly. Oh and the prolific "footwear" clan of Thong!

On the other side of the genetic fence there are the stallions, with their single copy of a "Y" chromosome - their sex determinant chromosome, received from their sire's BTW - and a single "X" chromosome which can only come from their dam. Stallions can only pass on their "Y" (or male) chromosome to their sons and their lone "X" chromosome to their daughters.

But why do we focus almost exclusively on only these two chromosomes? The "Y" chromosome especially is much smaller in genetic heft or number of genes it carries and while some of that sex-linked material may have value for passing on the genetic code for enhanced performance it is fairly clear that there are many more genes than just the ones on the "Y" or "X" chromosome which contribute to either the expression or suppression of racing abilities.

THE reason IMO is that early on in the breeding of thoroughbreds the sex is outwardly discernable and could be linked to the individual's performance on the track, thence to his offspring from the stud. Later the distinctive "Y" and "X" chromosomes became microscopicly visible at the same time that genetic science became aware of sex linked traits in the genome of man an animals and therefore linkable to the external attributes/performance.

In other words we focus on them because until recently - with modern super computers and the resultant ability to do DNA sequencing studies - because they were the only tools we really had.

[louis finochio]

When I research the BOY and find a breeding pattern that BOY or Blue Hens produce their like I will agree to the same, but until I do I will hold to my remarks on my post. Thanks Jellac for your input. Be Well, Do Good Work, and Keep in Touch. Louis.

[TEXAS]

Having a physics degree... I have yet to figure out how you can give all the credit to a so-called blue hen mare like LA TROIENNE.... or others

I compare her as being like brass and the result of combining two metals to make a better one... i.e her sire TEDDY and her dam HELENE DE TROIE...

Why wouldn't you give more credit to the base metals for producing a metal of better quality.. rather than the resulting product??

I think this blue hen thing is one generation off...
sure she produced some better progeny... she had to get the boost to her genes from somewhere... and her dam and sire are good canidates for that... so wouldn't her dam be the possessor of the genetic field being represented by her daughter???.... justskippinrocksonthepond... texas

[bcassidy]

Texas, if your assumption were true than the dam of the blue hen through her other daughters would have produced equally as well as the blue hen mare herself, through her daughters, if not, than something significant occurred with the blue hen which triggered the resulting success of her offspring. While the sire and dam of the blue hen are equally important in the creation of the blue hen--- the significance of the blue hen in the pedigree and not the dam of the blue hen would be more critical to me.

[TEXAS]

I understand the reasoning... of giving credit to a blue hen...

but I think the researchers stopped one generation too soon... shouldn't the blue hens just be considered the progeny of the true base mares? (their dams)

Since all posts want to give credit to a mare giving the gene structure to the following progeny?? Wouldn't the true blue hen be the one that created the super star.... the dams of all the blue hen mares??? .... texas

[Ruffian]

A very modern example is that of ALLEGRETTA and her daughter URBAN SEA... Allegretta has produced an Irish Oaks winner(Urban Sea) and a 2000 guineas winner- King's Best, who has a first crop not doing too bad either. In turn Urban Sea has produced- A dual Derby winner, a St Leger Winner and a 2nd(?not sure) in the Oaks this year. Talk about class.

[louis finochio]

If a high percentage of Blue Hens could reproduce their like, it would make the breeding game much easier to produce SW. The breeding shed is not an assembly line to crank out SW after SW. For every 1 step you take foreward, mother nature makes you take 3 backwards. By breeding out of mares that have bred winners and SW to every different stallion they were bred to you have the percentages on your side. These mares possess the the mysterious nicking factor that enables them to produce the goods with every sire they are bred to. These mares are gold mine producers, even if they are not classified as Blue Hens. Many are called but few are chosen.

[bcassidy]

OK Texas so let me ask you a question which might then in turn answer your own question. If you had a choice between two mares ( both being equal with respect to confirmation, etc, remember this is a hypothetical) one from a confirmed blue hen mare and the other from the dam of a confirmed blue hen mare, which would you want and why? Remember you can only have one, they both cost the same and they are both identical physically. I know which one I would want and why I would want that one.

[TEXAS]

Bcassidy;

Good hypo...
but remember we are talking dead horses here... and who gets the credit for being a blue hen...

blue hen = brass
blue hen's dam=tin or copper

If we are peering into the future I would buy the dam and then I would end up owning both of them... but all blue hens are long dead by the time they are recognized.. so this is a moot point.
Did I crawl out of that one or not... laughing...

My original inquiry.. was why not the dam of the blue hen.... as several have indicated... it may take several years in this female family for another one to show up...
it is like adding the color to fireworks... different metals create different colors... and if you were not taking notes on the metal defining which color... it could take a while for the color blue to show up again...

Then comes the question what caused it to happen again... the "blue hen" 20-100 years earlier or another sire and dam nick to make blue hen number 2 ??

I also compare this to Smarty Jones' dam and the 5 million... the chances of her nicking another Smarty is a jillion to one.. same as full brothers both being good sires or racing identical... but someone with more money than sense will buy both of them...
same with breeding to Smarty Jones' sire... I think 14 sires have ever produced 2 kentucky derby winners... and the same goes for a derby winner siring a derby winner... mathematically not good odds or $$ sense...
So, since some dead guy identified and wrote about a good producing dead mare as a 'blue hen' instead of her mother producing said blue hen.. it must be a fact. justagrinnin.... texas..

[bcassidy]

Texas. maybe some of our difference of opinion can be traced to a difference in the definition of a Blue Hen. In my definition, a Blue Hen mare will consistently throw top quatlity runners or producers, by definition--the dam of such a Blue Hen is not doing this or she would have been the Blue Hen not the daughter we labeled the Blue Hen. The genetic greatness has to start with one animal recognizing that every animal has a family lineage behind them responsible for their success.

[bcassidy]

Texas, Yes we are speaking about dead animals in the pedigrees of live animals we are looking at now. It is still possible to find an offspring which traces only to the dam of a Blue Hen and not the Blue hen herself, would you consider the offspring of the dam of a Blue Hen to be equally as valuable to an offspring which traces back to the dam of the Blue Hen through the Blue Hen herself? I you understand what I am trying to point out. It can sound a little awkward when you type it in text.

[Linda in TX]

I understand the reasoning... of giving credit to a blue hen..I think the researchers stopped one generation too soon... shouldn't the blue hens just be considered the progeny of the true base mares? (their dams)

La Troienne, belongs to Family # 1. Family # 1 has 25 branches - all of the tap-root matrons in Family # 1 converge at some point along the line back in time but the whole family began with Tregonwell's Natural Barb mare. So, actually she's the one who oughta get all the credit.

But the purpose of having Family designations and Family sub-divisions isn't so much to assign credit as it is to facilitate keeping track of the produce of all the mares. Many years ago a painstaking effort was undertaken to group the foundation mares into families by number. The assignment of 1, 2, 3,... was based on the number of victories within the Family (descending from the foundation mare) in the European Classic races. 1 had the most, 2 the second most and so on. To further facilitate the record keeping the larger families were broken into branches (sub-divisions - designated by a letter of the alphabet) based on their successful acheivment in the breeding shed by individual mares. Right now, the families could use an overhaul and be further sub-divided.

La Troienne is designated as the tap-root matron of her own branch of her Family --> 1-x. This happened because La Troienne, who by the way was a Wal-Mart mare, was an exemplary producer. But La Troienne was assigned a letter just within the past couple of years when her production record became too large to manage under her branch of Family 1-s. The tap-root matron of Family 1-s is Web who is many generations removed from La Troienne.

Keep in mind the Thoroughbred isn't like quarter horses or pinto ponies where you go back three generations when reading their pedigrees and run into that prolific and popular sire of yesteryear "Unknown."

The TB has a recorded history of performance and pedigree that spans three hundred years. TBs are the only domesticated animal with such an extensive documented history, and the Family designations brings a little order to what dead horses hundreds of thousands of other horses (dead or alive) descend from. When I look at the pedigree of a living horse, for example, I might see five unrecognizable names tail-female in the first five generations. But when I see "1-n" after the name of the fifth mare I know immediately he belongs to Chelandry's family. If I'm planning a mating or engaged in some other type of research (tracking mtDNA, for example) then having that kind of information readily available is indispensible.

Also, "blue-hen" mares aren't necessarily those assigned with a letter after their Family number - those mares are the "tap-root" matrons of that particular branch of their Family. Some people may prefer to select a mare further up the chain, call her a "blue-hen" and use her descendents in their breeding plans. Just as some people compile their own list of "blue-hens," others prefer to use Ellen Parker's Reine-de-Course list or Ken McClean's list of "elite mares." So, Texas, if you're more comfortable writing Helen de Troie on your personal "blue-hen" list instead of her daughter La Troienne, go right ahead.

[Offlast]

One of the reasons is that for certain genetical reasons a female cannot pass her sex genes to her daughters, only to her sons. On the other hand the male can pass his sex genes to both his sons and daughters. Therefore, for purely biological reasons, it would appear that the Female's principal function (genetically) is to act as a conveyance for the passing
on of the racial qualities of the Male. How many Blue Hens have reproduced Blue Hens ?

I know the Blue Hen "How" produced the Blue Hen "Pocahantas" who in turn produced sires such as Tom Rolfe and Chieftain...

That if the first one that comes to mind. If I remember others, I'll post.

[Mahubah]

Grey Flight (9 SWs but, strangely, never honored as Broodmare of the Year) produced Misty Morn (racetrack champion, 5 SWs, and 1963 Broodmare of the Year). Grey Flight also produced 2-time leading US sire What a Pleasure and is the only mare I can think of to produce both a leading sire and a Broodmare of the Year.

Some other blue hens to produce blue hens (at least in my book):

Imperatrice (6 SWs) produced Somethingroyal (4 SWs including Secretariat and Sir Gaylord).

*La Troienne (5 SWs including champions Black Helen and Bimelech) produced Big Hurry (5 SWs), in turn dam of Searching (3 high-class fillies including champion Affectionately). *La Troienne also produced Baby League (4 SWs including HOY Busher), whose daughter Striking produced 5 SWs including Glamour, herself dam of 4 SWs including Irish Classic winner Boucher.

Broodmare of the Year Iron Reward (3 SWs despite frequent barrenness) produced Broodmare of the Year Track Medal (4 SWs).