Good morning everyone! My daughter has shown a lot of interest in dressage. A friend pointed me in the direction of track rescues. I have a few really basic questions:
How long does this transition take, or are they just too hot to handle?? I know there are exceptions, but I'm looking for a very general time frame.
Also, I was told that a gelding is a better choice. Why is this?? Not as many mood swings, more attentive/focused, holds his color better (for the show)???
I would rather take the time to rehabilitate an ex-racer, than breed (and HOPE to get what we're looking for) or worse yet, see him/her go to a kill buyer.
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Rehabilitating from the track
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Generally I'd give an OTTB at least 6 months to let down from the track. Complete turnout is preferable in this phase, then gradually teach the horse the skills required to be a gentle and safe riding horse before moving onto dressage specific skills like 20 meter circles.
BTW this is not a job for a total novice. Be honest with yourself as to the level of skill and expertise that you and your daughter have. Since you are considering a TB for dressage, your daughter is probably only interested in lower level dressage -- very few TBs make it past Third Level. Can I offer you an alternative? If you want to work on a project, find an old schoolmaster with physical issues who can no longer physically perform at the higher levels and let that horse take you daughter up the lower levels. You'll be giving your daughter a trained horse to learn on and you'll keep your daughter more safe. You'll also offer an older horse the chance at a new career.
How do you do that? Hang out at the dressage shows and check out the bulletin boards. Your daughter will need an instructor--use them as a resource. Don't forget to have fun!
BTW this is not a job for a total novice. Be honest with yourself as to the level of skill and expertise that you and your daughter have. Since you are considering a TB for dressage, your daughter is probably only interested in lower level dressage -- very few TBs make it past Third Level. Can I offer you an alternative? If you want to work on a project, find an old schoolmaster with physical issues who can no longer physically perform at the higher levels and let that horse take you daughter up the lower levels. You'll be giving your daughter a trained horse to learn on and you'll keep your daughter more safe. You'll also offer an older horse the chance at a new career.
How do you do that? Hang out at the dressage shows and check out the bulletin boards. Your daughter will need an instructor--use them as a resource. Don't forget to have fun!
Gizmo, if you want an OTTB that is already let down and has sufficient basic work I have a pretty good inventory, and at least three that would be great dressage prospects. I am also in KY. If you look at what it would cost to keep a horse through "letting down" and having a trainer trail-ride and haze out, work on ground manners. etc. etc. sometimes it is better to pay a little money for a horse that already has that done.
It's very difficult to answer such a general question like the one you asked, but this subject is a bit of a "pet peeve" of mine, so I have to jump in here. I can honestly say with 100% certainty that my own personal horses, when they come off the track, need NO "let down" time and are already trained well with good manners, etc... I have yet to truthfully understand the theory behind letting a horse sit for so long before doing anything with it. If you think about it, a racehorse is used to being handled constantly and ridden pretty much daily. That horse is fit and used to getting excersized. What's the point of letting them lose that routine, lose condition, etc???
Our personal horses that we raise are great. We bring them home between meets and I would easily jump on any of them day one and ride around... it's just not an issue. Even horses that we've claimed (therefore not knowing how they've been raised or treated) have never been a problem for us... when we bring them home, we jump on and ride the fenceline to show them where everything is before turning them out the first time...
Our homebreds are raised like this: they are imprinted at birth and handled a lot... they learn to trust people and want to please people. When they get their initial "breaking," it is done using Natural Horsemanship methods. The horses learn manners, to yield to pressure, to listen and respond to a rider, before they ever hit the track. So far, not a single one of those horses has lost that knowledge on the track. They are very easy to get along with when we bring them home.
If it weren't for the fact that the ones that we've claimed, and even our stallion who was handled quite differently prior to us buying him, have all responded the same way to immediate handling/riding and have never needed any adjustment periods, I would probably think that it was just due to the way that our horses were initially raised. However, I believe that a TB is a HORSE for crying out loud, and if you want a horse to be a riding horse, start working with it from day 1 and take things at the speed that you and the horse together feel comfortable. That is what you would do with any other horse of any other breed from any other discipline, why would you treat a horse any differently just because it's a TB and was on the track? If you want it to be a dressage horse or a jumper or a trail horse or whatever, get on the horse and ride! If you want a pasture ornament, fine... then turn the horse out and look at it for 6 months.
I know I hold a minority opinion here, but in all the years we've handled TBs like real horses and not fragile timebombs, they've rewarded us by acting like real horses with brains and sense, and we've never had a problem. Again, just my opinion, but one I hold a pretty strong belief in.
Our personal horses that we raise are great. We bring them home between meets and I would easily jump on any of them day one and ride around... it's just not an issue. Even horses that we've claimed (therefore not knowing how they've been raised or treated) have never been a problem for us... when we bring them home, we jump on and ride the fenceline to show them where everything is before turning them out the first time...
Our homebreds are raised like this: they are imprinted at birth and handled a lot... they learn to trust people and want to please people. When they get their initial "breaking," it is done using Natural Horsemanship methods. The horses learn manners, to yield to pressure, to listen and respond to a rider, before they ever hit the track. So far, not a single one of those horses has lost that knowledge on the track. They are very easy to get along with when we bring them home.
If it weren't for the fact that the ones that we've claimed, and even our stallion who was handled quite differently prior to us buying him, have all responded the same way to immediate handling/riding and have never needed any adjustment periods, I would probably think that it was just due to the way that our horses were initially raised. However, I believe that a TB is a HORSE for crying out loud, and if you want a horse to be a riding horse, start working with it from day 1 and take things at the speed that you and the horse together feel comfortable. That is what you would do with any other horse of any other breed from any other discipline, why would you treat a horse any differently just because it's a TB and was on the track? If you want it to be a dressage horse or a jumper or a trail horse or whatever, get on the horse and ride! If you want a pasture ornament, fine... then turn the horse out and look at it for 6 months.
I know I hold a minority opinion here, but in all the years we've handled TBs like real horses and not fragile timebombs, they've rewarded us by acting like real horses with brains and sense, and we've never had a problem. Again, just my opinion, but one I hold a pretty strong belief in.
Roguelet wrote:. That is what you would do with any other horse of any other breed from any other discipline, why would you treat a horse any differently just because it's a TB and was on the track? .
Because of the Equipoise, high energy feed and general fitness level that is greatly in excess of anything asked of the horse as a trail horse, dressage horse or jumper. That needs to get out of horse's system before you can start serious training in another discipline just for the sake of the horse not to mention the trainer.
I'm not discounting your experience Roguelet but mine has been very very different and I've ridden plenty of OTTBs and OTQHs and have been the liaison between owners of retiringTBs and new sport horse owners a few times now. Six months turn out is common wisdom just to get the track out of them and allow them to be a horse again before you start them on something new.[/quote]
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Skipitgirl
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I have had several OTTB's and agree with both. Ive had some that need no down time and a few that do. I also had one who I trained through 4th level dressage before losing him to colic. They are wonderful horses in the right hands. If this will be a first horse for your daughter I too would suggest a older schoolmaster. They teach you alot and are pretty forgiving. Good Luck.
I guess not everyone sees things the same way, but that's what makes the world go 'round. Like I said, we've never had a horse off the track, (raised by us, purchased privately, or claimed,) that we couldn't just jump on from day one and ride. Maybe I'll change my opinion when and if I ever encounter one that can't handle that, but as yet I have not. Shoot, half the time we ride bareback with a halter even!
If you can read a horse and communicate with a horse, there's no reason to wait even a week to begin working on furthering that relationship, IMO. I'm sure there are plenty of people looking for a pet or casual horse, and their fitness will gradually decrease from their racing fitness, but for anyone looking for a serious competitor, you don't want to lose that fitness! Sure, you're developing different muscles, but why not do it gradually from day one instead of letting the horse become "unfit" and then turning around to make it fit again (physically and mentally)???? Just doesn't make sense.
It's also my belief that taking a horse who is used to daily interaction, handling, daily riding and exercise, and throwing it out to suddenly do nothing isn't the best thing for the horse physically, but is really a terrible thing to do to the horse mentally. Again, just my opinion, and I'm always open to change my opinion, but I like to form my opinions by using first hand knowledge... and my personal first hand knowledge has shown me that if you treat an OTTB with respect and begin to develop a good communication with that horse from day one, that horse will very very quickly connect with you and you can work toward your goal together right away... makes for a happier horse and rider, and you reach your end goal a heck of a lot faster.
If you can read a horse and communicate with a horse, there's no reason to wait even a week to begin working on furthering that relationship, IMO. I'm sure there are plenty of people looking for a pet or casual horse, and their fitness will gradually decrease from their racing fitness, but for anyone looking for a serious competitor, you don't want to lose that fitness! Sure, you're developing different muscles, but why not do it gradually from day one instead of letting the horse become "unfit" and then turning around to make it fit again (physically and mentally)???? Just doesn't make sense.
It's also my belief that taking a horse who is used to daily interaction, handling, daily riding and exercise, and throwing it out to suddenly do nothing isn't the best thing for the horse physically, but is really a terrible thing to do to the horse mentally. Again, just my opinion, and I'm always open to change my opinion, but I like to form my opinions by using first hand knowledge... and my personal first hand knowledge has shown me that if you treat an OTTB with respect and begin to develop a good communication with that horse from day one, that horse will very very quickly connect with you and you can work toward your goal together right away... makes for a happier horse and rider, and you reach your end goal a heck of a lot faster.
There is plenty of truth in all the above posts...
I go with the experience of the rider theory...
If she is a beginner... let her ride schooling horses at an instructors barn while determining if this is a kid fad thing or if she will continue on thru for the next year...
then decide on buying a horse..
once you are settled in with a good barn.. you will find the right horses... kids are graduating in riding skills and moving up to more energetic horses all the time... so just move up to the next step as your daughter progresses...
When dealing with kids... always buy a horse that you feel sure they will outgrow in 6 months time and then make them beg for another 6 months before buying more horse for them.
Once they have developed some riding skills encourage them to ride as many different horses as possible and get them accustomed to different cues and a 'feel' for different horses.
A good instructor during this phase is a must... the kid must learn cues and become automatic with them.. instead of developing bad habits and spending a lot of time undoing those habits... a good automatic pilot horse is highly recommended.
Experienced horsemen can jump on a horse and ride the pasture... the number one thing on OTTB's is they were taught to run into the bit... this is a controlled runaway with an open track in front of them... the constant pressure applied to the bit the harder they run... called running into the bit... so this is the major that has to be undone... generally race horses have seen more excitement, crowds, noise etc etc etc than other horses... so to me these things are not an issue.. .. texas
I go with the experience of the rider theory...
If she is a beginner... let her ride schooling horses at an instructors barn while determining if this is a kid fad thing or if she will continue on thru for the next year...
then decide on buying a horse..
once you are settled in with a good barn.. you will find the right horses... kids are graduating in riding skills and moving up to more energetic horses all the time... so just move up to the next step as your daughter progresses...
When dealing with kids... always buy a horse that you feel sure they will outgrow in 6 months time and then make them beg for another 6 months before buying more horse for them.
Once they have developed some riding skills encourage them to ride as many different horses as possible and get them accustomed to different cues and a 'feel' for different horses.
A good instructor during this phase is a must... the kid must learn cues and become automatic with them.. instead of developing bad habits and spending a lot of time undoing those habits... a good automatic pilot horse is highly recommended.
Experienced horsemen can jump on a horse and ride the pasture... the number one thing on OTTB's is they were taught to run into the bit... this is a controlled runaway with an open track in front of them... the constant pressure applied to the bit the harder they run... called running into the bit... so this is the major that has to be undone... generally race horses have seen more excitement, crowds, noise etc etc etc than other horses... so to me these things are not an issue.. .. texas
I STARTED OUT WITH NOTHING...
AND STILL HAVE MOST OF IT...
AND STILL HAVE MOST OF IT...
Nice post Texas. What is the old saying..green plus green equals black and blue?
Gizmo, if your daughter is a green rider, she doesn't have the skills to teach a green horse. You can't teach what you don't know yourself. In my experience, dressage trainers consider even experienced race horses to be only green broke ("They go fast and they turn left" as one horseman described it to me.) That's not a bad thing--the horses know what they need to know. But what they don't know about rhythm, collection and impulsion can fill volumes and even a modest lower level dressage horse should know some of that to be a fun well trained ride and competitive.
So if you are looking at the OTTB option, you also have to figure in a trainer unless your daughter has much more experience than you are letting on. Why not buy the training upfront and then invest in lessons? Your daughter will progress much faster all things being equal.
Gizmo, if your daughter is a green rider, she doesn't have the skills to teach a green horse. You can't teach what you don't know yourself. In my experience, dressage trainers consider even experienced race horses to be only green broke ("They go fast and they turn left" as one horseman described it to me.) That's not a bad thing--the horses know what they need to know. But what they don't know about rhythm, collection and impulsion can fill volumes and even a modest lower level dressage horse should know some of that to be a fun well trained ride and competitive.
So if you are looking at the OTTB option, you also have to figure in a trainer unless your daughter has much more experience than you are letting on. Why not buy the training upfront and then invest in lessons? Your daughter will progress much faster all things being equal.
green plus green equals black and blue
respectfully.... not always. Worked out wonderfully for me - I wasn't totally green but I was no champ either - I ended up with a horse that never refused a fence, never even tried to dump me and did manage something recognizable as dressage - enough for eventing, anyway. Somehow having to think about the progress of the horse instead of myself made me into a much better rider. It depends what your daughter's goals are - she'd advance more rapidly on a schoolmaster, and if she is really ambitious, she might get frustrated with the amount of time it takes to develop a horse, and would want a horse that could go further up the ranks than a thoroughbred is likely to (as pointed out, they are not bred for it, either physically or mentally).
I would trust the judgement of your daughter's trainer/instructor on this one and get that person involved in the selection of the horse. If she doesn't have a good support system, and ends up overmounted, then all she will learn is fear and negativity.
What Madelyn suggested might make the most sense. Finding a horse that she can get on and try out would certainly improve the odds of a good match.
Honestly, everyone here has really posted good advice... I don't want anyone to think that I'm advocating a beginning rider jumping on an OTTB day one bareback with a halter and riding around an open field... a horse should ALWAYS be compatible with and safe for their rider, whatever level they may be. My point was more that I don't feel the down time is necessary for an OTTB... but I will also be the first to say that it's probably not the very best scenario for the beginner.
However, I didn't get a feel one way or another for whether your daughter is a beginner or not. I did many many years of hunter/jumper and trail riding before I ever even thought about trying dressage. I didn't know anything about dressage at the time, but I certainly knew my way around a horse.
I will say that I think TBs are, as a general rule, one of the easier breeds to teach early dressage moves to simply because they tend to be very sensitive and NOT very lazy. Of course there are always exceptions, but generally speaking I find that they learn to listen to leg and bit cues very quickly... especially if their initial breaking was done in such a way to prepare them for this type of thing. After all, we don't break our horses in a race saddle wtih the stirrups all the way up and a racing bridle... we usually start with a halter, teaching light pressure and response, and a western or all-purpose english saddle with full leg contact. Horses don't quickly forget these things.
To address another of your questions, I would say that many prefer geldings over mares due to the fact that you know what you get personality-wise. With mares, some change their attitudes when they're cycling and don't always have their mind on their work. Other than that, I can really think of no reason why one sex would differ from the other... it just depends on each horse as an individual.
However, I didn't get a feel one way or another for whether your daughter is a beginner or not. I did many many years of hunter/jumper and trail riding before I ever even thought about trying dressage. I didn't know anything about dressage at the time, but I certainly knew my way around a horse.
I will say that I think TBs are, as a general rule, one of the easier breeds to teach early dressage moves to simply because they tend to be very sensitive and NOT very lazy. Of course there are always exceptions, but generally speaking I find that they learn to listen to leg and bit cues very quickly... especially if their initial breaking was done in such a way to prepare them for this type of thing. After all, we don't break our horses in a race saddle wtih the stirrups all the way up and a racing bridle... we usually start with a halter, teaching light pressure and response, and a western or all-purpose english saddle with full leg contact. Horses don't quickly forget these things.
To address another of your questions, I would say that many prefer geldings over mares due to the fact that you know what you get personality-wise. With mares, some change their attitudes when they're cycling and don't always have their mind on their work. Other than that, I can really think of no reason why one sex would differ from the other... it just depends on each horse as an individual.
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Linda in TX
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Synsoby and Rogue...
I trained hunters - jumpers (as well as a few race horses) and riders as a profession for nearly twenty years. During that time, I and my partner had hundreds of fresh OTTBs come through the barn. The only OTTBs we ever placed on turn out were the ones who needed R & R to recover from an illness, a soundness problem or were starving. With all the others, it was business as usual and virtually the same routine they experienced at the track. They were kept in box stalls, taken out every day for one of us to either ride in the ring or work with on the ground, brought back to the barn for a bath, cooled out and groomed.
The only thing that differed between their regimen at the track and life at our barn was their diet and the new skill set they were learning. Our horses were still fit from daily work. But because their work was of a different type than when they raced, and their diet was different, they put on more flesh than they carried while racing. Instead of asking them to run around a big race track at full speed, we were now asking them to hack quietly on the buckle in an arena. None ever objected to the new tasks and most settled immediately into their new job.
I can't recall a single horse that needed more than 90 days before it was steady enough to show on the flat - even the ones that were silly and strong when we first got them settled down promptly with patient and consistent handling. The ones that were stiff and sticky on one side gradually improved with the right exercises. One horse in particular I remember well was such a talented, easy ride he never needed a single day of schooling. He arrived in the our from the track mid-week, we took him to the ring for the next couple of days to get to know him, and on Saturday of that same week he was in the show ring, jumping a baby green course. He won and kept on winning. He was exceptional, of course, and he was the only one I ever met like him. But my point is horses aren't stupid; they pretty much do whatever you ask them to do and transistion rather quickly and easily from one discipline to another without needing any time in between for any "adjustment."
Gizmo...
If your daughter is a relatively inexperienced rider or if she has ridden a lot without formal instruction, then the best type of mount for her is one that is already trained in the discipline she wants to pursue. She can learn a lot from a trained horse while knowing she'll be safe (those kind of horses are called "insurance policies"). But she could get into a jam if she tackles a green horse without the proper knowledge - especially if the horse she's working with hasn't read the same book on training she read or is someone else's trouble to begin with. Talk with Madelyn. She can help your daughter get the right kind of horse.
I trained hunters - jumpers (as well as a few race horses) and riders as a profession for nearly twenty years. During that time, I and my partner had hundreds of fresh OTTBs come through the barn. The only OTTBs we ever placed on turn out were the ones who needed R & R to recover from an illness, a soundness problem or were starving. With all the others, it was business as usual and virtually the same routine they experienced at the track. They were kept in box stalls, taken out every day for one of us to either ride in the ring or work with on the ground, brought back to the barn for a bath, cooled out and groomed.
The only thing that differed between their regimen at the track and life at our barn was their diet and the new skill set they were learning. Our horses were still fit from daily work. But because their work was of a different type than when they raced, and their diet was different, they put on more flesh than they carried while racing. Instead of asking them to run around a big race track at full speed, we were now asking them to hack quietly on the buckle in an arena. None ever objected to the new tasks and most settled immediately into their new job.
I can't recall a single horse that needed more than 90 days before it was steady enough to show on the flat - even the ones that were silly and strong when we first got them settled down promptly with patient and consistent handling. The ones that were stiff and sticky on one side gradually improved with the right exercises. One horse in particular I remember well was such a talented, easy ride he never needed a single day of schooling. He arrived in the our from the track mid-week, we took him to the ring for the next couple of days to get to know him, and on Saturday of that same week he was in the show ring, jumping a baby green course. He won and kept on winning. He was exceptional, of course, and he was the only one I ever met like him. But my point is horses aren't stupid; they pretty much do whatever you ask them to do and transistion rather quickly and easily from one discipline to another without needing any time in between for any "adjustment."
Gizmo...
If your daughter is a relatively inexperienced rider or if she has ridden a lot without formal instruction, then the best type of mount for her is one that is already trained in the discipline she wants to pursue. She can learn a lot from a trained horse while knowing she'll be safe (those kind of horses are called "insurance policies"). But she could get into a jam if she tackles a green horse without the proper knowledge - especially if the horse she's working with hasn't read the same book on training she read or is someone else's trouble to begin with. Talk with Madelyn. She can help your daughter get the right kind of horse.
Let me start by saying THANK YOU (again) for all your wonderful advice.
My daughter has been riding since she's been able to keep her balance. She started out bareback, with just a halter and leadrope, and has been working her way up in skills ever since....much to the dismay of my husband's quickly dwindling pocketbook.
She's been in lessons for the past 5 years, with the last 2 focusing more on jumping and dressage. She competed several times at a local saddle club - gaming and Western Pleasure (riding our own QHs). She has been invited to come back to spend the Summer (barn is in WI), and continue her lessons/showing. This is a trusted friend and trainer, and I would send a green horse there, before he/she came home to KY.
Right now, I'm trying to do as much research as I can (so be prepared for an onslought of dumb questions
). I'm with you Texas, making them whine for a new horse, but I think my length of time is MUCH longer than yours. This trainer has agreed to let us lease one of her horses, until my daughter (or the horse) is ready.
Again, thank you all so much for your advice. Madelyn, I will certainly be contacting you!! I know we'll be adding to our herd, and want to make the best decision (for both my daughter and the horse).
My daughter has been riding since she's been able to keep her balance. She started out bareback, with just a halter and leadrope, and has been working her way up in skills ever since....much to the dismay of my husband's quickly dwindling pocketbook.
She's been in lessons for the past 5 years, with the last 2 focusing more on jumping and dressage. She competed several times at a local saddle club - gaming and Western Pleasure (riding our own QHs). She has been invited to come back to spend the Summer (barn is in WI), and continue her lessons/showing. This is a trusted friend and trainer, and I would send a green horse there, before he/she came home to KY.
Right now, I'm trying to do as much research as I can (so be prepared for an onslought of dumb questions
). I'm with you Texas, making them whine for a new horse, but I think my length of time is MUCH longer than yours. This trainer has agreed to let us lease one of her horses, until my daughter (or the horse) is ready.
Again, thank you all so much for your advice. Madelyn, I will certainly be contacting you!! I know we'll be adding to our herd, and want to make the best decision (for both my daughter and the horse).
And then there was the story of the older TB colt who "allegedly" savaged about 17 grooms. He was gelded and turned out for about 6 months. I personally saw him go from being a very high strung, not very happy horse to a friendly, sweet horse. (Of course I fed him carrots every weekend). He just returned to the track and is now back in training. He is a horse who definitely needed some down time. 
I think, just as with all things, it depends on the individual horse and the individual person. I would think a short period of turnout would be good for the horse AND a good opportunity for the young girl to get to know the horse, gently and gradually and build a rapport with the horse while she grooms him/her or learns to groom him/her.
Rougelet and Linda sound like incredible horsewomean. Wish I'd been introduced to horses at a much younger age. I feel like I missed so much!
I think, just as with all things, it depends on the individual horse and the individual person. I would think a short period of turnout would be good for the horse AND a good opportunity for the young girl to get to know the horse, gently and gradually and build a rapport with the horse while she grooms him/her or learns to groom him/her.
Rougelet and Linda sound like incredible horsewomean. Wish I'd been introduced to horses at a much younger age. I feel like I missed so much!
