Common denominator in producing SW's

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Winnie
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Common denominator in producing SW's

Postby Winnie » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:40 pm

My study is done, well not completely since it would be too long (it's long enough as it is) and was getting time consuming. I was able to do half of the list of CA. SW's for 2006 in alphabetical order. Doing a list from a state like CA. gives a more reliable look into what common denominator shows up over and over when it comes to being able to produce a quality runner. If I had done one from Kentucky SW's it may be slanted, since most all KY race horses are well bred...were as those from CA are mediocre at best. Although they are improving more and more, year after year.

I had done this study many years ago from another CA. list and the results were basically the same.

I have stated on this forum what I have thought helps tremendously in producing a quality runner and that was the female family...more directly or influential was how well the 1st dam ran and her dam as well. I have stated that, more often than not, if the dam was a QUALITY runner (2.00 or more, is considered top 8.4 % of all runners QUALITY) or her mother was an above average runner or BOTH ...then more than likely you have a higher chance of producing a quality stakes horse. This is probably true since these are the more up close genes, unlike Nieces and Nephews, Aunts and Uncles etc. Focusing too far back in ones pedigree is focusing on a diluted gene pool...although I agree with mxing of the genes, inbreeding and sex balancing. The Dam and Sire deserve the most consideration. :)

The sire is important, but not as much as the female family. The sire you choose to go to, should be to improve the quality you already have, not to make up for what you DON'T have.

My study concluded this to be true. Out of 70...2006 CA. SW's looked up on my APR I found that 78% of the horses had this in common. I had added the 6 horses that had unraced dams and unraced grand dams, yet came from quality female famlies. Since there is NO WAY of knowing what actual talent that horse would have had if it had raced...judging from it's siblings there is a good way of determining whether it would be good or poor.

I found that 12% came from average families and 10% were exceptions to the rule. A lot of people would love to focus on the "exceptions" to the rules to justify owning or buying a poor quality mare. As a buyer I would want to focus on what has shown to work in producing a quality runner or runners. I want to stack the cards in my favor so to speak and this is one way of doing it. Whether I would race the offspring or sell...to me there is no diffence, when it comes to BREEDING. When it comes to selling there are many different things to look at, while at the same time NEVER forfieting the female families race record.

Below is my study......2.00 or more is what I would consider a benchmark although 1.75 is very good too, still being above average. In order to get a Standard Starts Index (ssi) a horse has to have 3 races or more...so a few that show unraced had less than 3 starts.
Last edited by Winnie on Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:54 pm, edited 9 times in total.

Winnie
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Postby Winnie » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:47 pm

List of 2006 CA. Foaled Stakes Winners in alphabetical order...half of total list.

Quality or Superior Runners will be in RED
Average or Above Runners will be in Blue
Below Average Runners in Green

A. V. FLYNN Dam unraced ~ Grand dam SPW Silly Billie 3.96

ALARMINGLY CHARMIN Dam SPW Cotton's Butterfly 1.87 ~ Grand dam SW BLOOMER MISS 5.82

ALCRES GEORGE Dam Reason To Be Happy 1.04 ~ Grand dam Reason To Be 3.51

ALLSWELLTHATNSWELL Dam unraced and Grand dam unraced, but 5 out of 11 were well above average under 1st and 2nd dam.

ALONG CAME JONES Dam Baxter's Susie Q 0.83 ~ Grand Dam Northern Sport 0.19 ..Exception

ALYS TY Dam Aly's Escapade 0.23 ~ Grand dam Escada 6.26

AMERICAN ALL STAR Dam unraced ~ Grand dam SW TAX DODGE 10.43

AREYOUTALKINTOME Dam unraced 1/2 to two black type horses and Grand dam unraced.

AWESOME PIRATE Dam unraced ~ Grand dam Winsomething 1.69

BAI AND BAI Dam Bai Shun 2.09 ~ Grand dam Tarop 2.37

BAYLEYS AFFAIR Dam unraced Grand dam unraced but very strong siblings.

BANG Dam SPW Ebony's Fast Play 2.84 ~ Grand dam Blackened 5.17

BANISH THE BLUES Dam Decidedly Natalie 1.88 ~ Grand dam SPW Natalie Knows 2.59

BOLD BENGIE Dam unraced ~ Grand dam Sown 8.14

BOLD CHIEFTAIN Dam Hooked On Music 2.42 ~ Grand dam unraced

BONFANTE Dam unraced ~ Grand dam Stolen Pass 0.36 Exception

BOOCFUSS Dam Let's Drink Brunch 3.07 ~ Grand dam Let's Drink Dinner 3.76

BORDONARO Dam Miss Excitement 5.36 ~ Grand dam unraced

BREEZING LOUISE Dam Ho Choy's Princess 0.61 ~ Grand dam SW TOUGH TILLIE 1.18 Exception

BROTHER DEREK Dam unraced ~ Grand dam SW SOLAMENTE UN VEZ 6.44

CAMBIOCORSA Dam 4 starts nothing ~ Grand dam Social Conduct 3.89

CANDY FACTORY Dam D. J.'s Chocolate 2.23 ~ Grand dam Glory Be To Eve 0.22

CEE'S THE POINT Dam Point Break 4.27 ~ Grand dam 1.68

CES'T MARK Dam Unconquered 1.28 ~ Grand dam unraced

CHEROOT Dam Triple Connection 3.34 ~ Grand dam Perfect Connection 1.78

COLLEGE GRADUATE Dam Gift of Knowledge 4 starts nothing. half to some really nice runners. Grand dam 3 starts nothing but half to some runners.

DA STOOPS Dam unraced ~ Grand dam Glamorous Habit 3 starts 1.05
Exception

DANCING EDIE Dam Princess Of Ack 5.37 ~ Grand dam Lady Ack Ack 2.60

DBL OTT Dam Come See Come Saw 0.60 (very weak siblings) ~ Grand dam Maraca 1.48 (half and half siblings)

DEE DEE'S DINER Dam unraced ~ Grand dam UNKNOWN but half to some nice horses

DER ALI Dam unraced ~ Grand dam DICE CUP 5.26

DEVONS SMOKIN Dam unraced ~ Grand dam 3 starts nothing.
Exception

DOUBLE CREDIT Dam Jess Tifiable 1.18 (half to some VERY nice siblings) ~ Grand dam Wing Mold 1.10 (half to some nice siblings)

EL DON Dam unraced ~ Grand dam In Prime Time 2.43

ELEANOR ROSE Dam SPW Crafty Josie 0.92 ~ Grand dam GOLDEN HORDE 13.46

EPIC POWER Dam Petite N Powerful 1.65 ~ Grand dam Congenial Pet 3.48

ESTRELITA D'CIELO Dam Risque Affair 2.92 ~ Grand dam unraced

EVITAN NATIVE Dam Slick And Bold 3 starts (half to some nice siblings) 0.77 ~ Grand dam unraced

FLYING SUPERCON Dam SW SUPER INTERCO 4.24 ~ Grand dam SW IMAGE OF SUPER 4.71

FREESGOOD Dam Fun Project 0.78 ~ Grand dam SW FLEET SECRETARIAT 4.63

FULL MOON MADNESS Dam Soft Charm 2.54 ~ Grand dam Love For Life 1.49

FUNNY WOMAN Dam SPW Funny Reality 1.97 ~ Grand dam Donna Duck 2.32

GN. GROUP MEETING Dam Gather The Group 0.92 ~ Grand dam SW ANNUAL REUNION 13.81

GO KITTY GO Dam Miami Margie 0.50 ~ Grand dam Puzla (Ire) 2.84

GREENIE Dam Green's Seascape (Gb) 3.03 ~ Grand dam no record

HALF FAMOUS Dam Love Token 1.61 ~ Grand damTamida 6.15

HEY HEY RENEE Dam unraced ~ Grand dam SW ROAD POCKET 1.75

HIS WAY Dam unraced ~ Grand dam Lucky Match 2.75

HOPINGANDWISHING Dam Fundamental Rights 2.72 ~ Grand dam unraced

HOUSE OF FORTUNE Dam unraced ~ Grand dam SW DELICATE VINE 61.81

ITSTUFFTOBEGOOD Dam Foliage (Nz) 0.39 ~ Grand dam SW ERA OF TRIUMPH (NZ) 3.23

KRESGEVILLE Dam Seed Case 1.05 ~ Grand dam SW BAD SEED 5.61

LAVA MAN Dam Li'l Ms. Leonard 4.38 ~ Grand dam unraced

LINDA'S IMAGE Dam Virtual Image 1.39 ~ Grand dam Pixie Ruler 1.28 (Both half to some very nice siblings)

LOOKINGFORPLEASURE Dam Forward Looking 0.34 (weak siblings)~ Grand dam unraced (not so weak)

LUCKY J. H. Dam Lucky C. H. 3.74 ~ Grand dam SW MARGARET BOOTH 6.50

MCCANN'S MOJAVE Dam SW JONI U. BAR 11.61 ~ Grand dam Edes Ilona 1.97

MEMORETTE Dam Forever Fondre 1.91 ~ Grand dam SW FONDRE 9.60

MEXICAN LOOP Dam unraced ~ Grand dam 5 starts Loop To Loop 0.03
Exception

MIMI GUARNERI Dam unraced ~ Grand dam SW MOST PRESTIGIOUS 5.42

MISTICAL PLAN Dam Mistical Bel 0.92 ~ Grand dam Mistical Mist 0.82 (Nice Siblings)
Exception

MOSCOW BURNING Dam SW BURNING DESIRE 4.13 ~ Grand dam unraced

MOTIVO Dam unraced above average siblings ~ Grand dam unraced WELL ABOVE average siblings.

MOUNTAIN MUSTANG Dam Brush Fire 3.54 ~ Grand dam Ms Canyon 10.63

MR. CHARMING Dam Brown's Best 0.69 ~ Grand dam SW OUR SWEET SHAM 9.03

MUEVETE Dam Gaminee 1.15 ~ Grand dam SW DOUBLE DIPLOMAT 3.96

MY LORD Dam SW LOVE OF OUR LIFE 4.50 ~ Grand dam Dreamy Bolina 3.57

NEWDAY COMIN Dam Masterful Dawn 2.66 ~ Grand dam After The Dawn 0.04

NEZI O Dam Bint Alriyadh 2.11 ~ Grand dam Apalachee Music 0.04
Last edited by Winnie on Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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henthorn
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Postby henthorn » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:33 am

Thanks for all the hard work! It helps to remind us that we can "make our own luck" when it comes to bloodstock choices.
Rocking H

Winnie
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Postby Winnie » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:39 am

You're welcome. One day I will finish the whole thing to have on hand for future use.

I hope this helps someone :D

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Postby Heidilady » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:47 am

Thanks a lot for doing all that. I sure hope we direct people to look at this who go 'I found a mare wandering around my backyard. I've decided to breed her. How can I get a season to a stallion so the foal will be super commercial. Oh and I have a spending limit of $1000. That includes cost of stud fee, boarding the mare, getting the foal to the yearling sale, and transportation.'

I swear some folks just don't get it. I want them to keep the dream but there are lives at risk here. Not just financial futures of them and their employees like trainer, jockey, groom,etc (although that's certainly one way to look at it) but lives of the horse and jockey on the track. The exercise rider's too. If they breed a substandard horse (I mean those few if any starts that are as brittle as eggshells so they can't hold up in training to even reach the stakes however talented they are), it could get hurt so badly it's put down and takes whoever's doing the piloting with it, nevermind who might be following behind them. An unsound horse or one that's simply unprepared for the effort being asked of it is a risk to itself and others, it's not just a horse that doesn't earn money. If we're truly breeding the best to the best (in whatever level you're in--we aren't all Darley or Claiborne), and keeping studies like this in mind, it limits the risk for our dreams to get dashed, in any capacity. One of mine at least is to improve the breed which I truly feel will help not only the fans but the people who work this life everyday. Can you think of a greater impact to strive for? That's why I can't stand short cuts and waste in this sport. It's just ignoring that you're only hurting it in the end. Do the horse a favor and don't breed one that doesn't deserve it. There'll just be that many more in the end that someone has to go rescue for every Cigar or John Henry you get.
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana"
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Winnie Rocks!

Postby TB Dreamin' » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:23 pm

:D I TOTALLY agree w/Winnie...you have to have a broodmare that meets certain criteria and looking at her SHOULD be the first step. Did she race? Was she successful at it...well, she should have been, and if she wasn't...her dam should have been very successful. But, it's like any other animal, the ones that have been champions, or successful show animals, etc. are the ones that people concentrate on breeding.

Just because you came across a mare for cheap, doesn't mean she should be bred!!!

Is her sire on the Broodmare Sire's List?

Look at her reproductive history. Lots of abortions, barren listings, etc.? Not a good sign.

Conformationally...you have to take a long and critical look. Is this a backyard pasture pet or a mare that truely deserves to be bred?

I just want to say, I'm reading all that I can, learning as I go, but I also have 25 years of handling Thoroughbred horses (in another sport) but knowing what conformational types stay sound and which don't. I know that you must keep a strict list when breeding a mare and determining if said mare is suitable to be bred, should be bred, etc., and looking at the way Winnie looked at horses stats shows the length that all of us should go to when selecting stallions!

Happy Breeding!
Amy

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Postby Sysonby » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:20 am

The scary, inexplicable gutwrenching but sometimes wonderful truth is that you can breed to Danzig and get a small swaybacked substandard horse that eventually has to be rescued or you you can breed to Ole Bob Bowers and get John Henry. Yes, breeding better to better is usually the way to go and I'm in no way advocating going on with mares who can't produce winners. But for every Secretariat out there, you can walk down shedrow after shedrow at a major track and find the progeny of $100,000 stallions who are not just bad or indifferent racehorses but sometimes bad horses period.

It's not a bad idea to play the percentages but I think it has to be done with the recognition that breeding is not that simple or claiming horses wouldn't have produced Count Fleet, or Dr Fager and Ta Wee or Spend A Buck or Carry Back etc etc

Yesterday, I got a heartbeat on a mare I sent to Kentucky to be bred. I've done what I can but anything can happen--let's see what pops out next January because best laid plans and all that :wink:

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Postby Winnie » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:58 am

Breeding to sires is another whole topic in itself.

But like I said before I doubt if you can take a mare who couldn't run and neither did her siblings or her mother and her siblings, breed that mare to Storm Cat and think you will get a stakes winner out of it.

I would love to see the percentages on that senerero.

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Postby Winnie » Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:22 am

Bump

TB Dreamin'
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What do think about this mare's chances?

Postby TB Dreamin' » Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:40 pm

:lol: O.k., here goes...my mare, first commercial mare I've owned is called Verreaux.(by Silver Hawk o/o Glaze) How do you think she'll fare as a broodmare? What potential does she have for producing runners, based on this info? Any thoughts (any and all) welcomed!

Trying my best to find good mares...

Amy

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Postby halo » Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:33 pm

Im not sure if theres much potential there, being as she's 14 and has already had several foals. She's had racing age foals by Spinning World, Skip Away, Cozzene and Royal Anthem that were either unplaced, unraced, or had a single win. Her Devil His Due sold for $15,000 as a yearling, and her Najran sold this past January for $1700. If those 2 make the races and make a name for themselves, you may have a few good years left to produce commercial foals, but if they dont, Im afraid its an uphill battle.

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Postby Winnie » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:21 pm

OK I pulled an updated produce record on the mare....I will send it to you since I paid for it.

I do agree with Halo in the fact that she will need to do better with her foals. It does show 2 foals to race, the one by Spinning Word only 2 starts.
The other had 12 starts with only one win and one second earning only $8,345. I'm not thrilled about Skip Away as a sire. Her other foals are unraced.

That is the bad news...the good news is like Halo said if those other ones by some nice sires, Cozzene, Royal Anthem, Storming Fever, Devil His Due, Najran hit the board then you will be in the money for selling of her future foals.

The fact that she is the kind of mare that is considered a quality mare as the study shows and that she was bred to some quality sires means you did the right thing in purchasing her. If she fails to produce, it's not for lack of trying and she would be in the minority of quality mares bred to quality sires producing poor runners. The goal is to breed the best to the best that you can afford and you obviously have done that (or someone has). Now there are many other factors involved which include nicking...conformation....temperament...trainers...health...soundness etc.

I am showing your mare to have an SSI of 3.75 and her dam SPW 4.47 both superior runners. Your dam is half to 3 other superior runners one being SPW. And her dam is half to a SPW and a few other quality runners.

Soundness does seem to be a problem in this pedigree or at least all the unraced and few starts in it indicate so.

I wish you the best of luck.....luck is what is needed at this point after everything else has been done. :D

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Postby Winnie » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:06 am

Here is a good example of a mare that should be either riden or producing sport horses and is being WAY over bred to sires who will not and have not improved her female families racing ability. Looks like her dam was on the right track being bred to a sport horse then someone changed their mind. :?

She is mentioned on this thread.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... hp?t=14212

Her produce record

PATCHEN BEAUTY, 1995, Hatchet Man- Precious Beauty by Jatullah.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI

2002 The White Fox, Wh, c, Pioneering 1 7 1 0 3 $8,035
0.39

2003 Barren

2004 Spot Of Beauty, Wh, f, Skip Away 1 5 1 0 1 $5,727
0.28

2005 Patchen Prince,c,Pioneering

Her as a runner and her siblings...check out sale prices


PRECIOUS BEAUTY, 1981, Jatullah- World O'beauty by Reverse.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1993 Manchet,Ch,c,Hatchet Man 2 6 0 1 0 851 ( 51) 0.07
North America 2 YO Record 2 0 0 0 112 ( 47)
North America Dirt Sprints 6 0 1 0 851 ( 51)

Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 1993 2087 $2,500 $4,000 wlg ( 2/ 2) $2,500

1994 Prospecting North,B,f,Gold Crest Unraced

Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 1994 2724 $1,500 $1,500 wlg ( 1/ 1) $2,500

1995 Patchen Beauty,Wh,f,Hatchet Man 4 23 2 2 2 54,268 ( 87) 1.10
North America 2 YO Record 2 0 0 0 1,218 ( 69)
North America Turf Record 9 1 0 1 16,912 ( 87)
North America Dirt Sprints 2 0 0 0 810 ( 61)
North America Dirt Routes 12 1 2 1 36,546 ( 85)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 4 0 0 1 5,050 ( 80)

1996 Unregistered Cover

1997 Ramblin Beauty,B,f,Wall Street Dancer 3 16 0 3 2 7,377 ( 67) 0.18
North America 2 YO Record 2 0 0 0 80 ( 47)
North America Dirt Sprints 13 0 3 2 7,310 ( 66)
North America Dirt Routes 3 0 0 0 67 ( 51)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 80 ( 45)

Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEESEP 1998 3705 $4,200 $10,729 ylg (12/14) $3,500

1998 Royal Marquee,Ch,c,Marquetry Unraced

Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 1998 3993 $7,500 $23,447 wlg (13/15) $10,000
FTMDEC 1999 570 $17,500 $33,031 ylg (29/77) $10,000
FTMOCT 1999 171 $6,000 $33,031 ylg (44/47) $10,000

1999 Aquamarina,Gr/Ro,f,Prospectors Gamble Unraced

Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEESEP 2000 4204 $3,500 $13,074 ylg (16/19) $4,000

2000 Slipped

2001 Precious Miss,Ch,f,Boone's Mill Unraced

Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 2001 4006 $1,700 $1,700 wlg ( 1/ 1) $5,000

Her dam and her siblings


WORLD O'BEAUTY, 1972, Reverse- White Beauty by Ky. Colonel.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI

1978 Devil's Foot,B,c,Crimson Falcon 7 122 16 19 14 67,195 0.75

1980 Poster Princess,Ch,f,Poster Prince 5 24 3 2 1 31,705 1.38

1981 Precious Beauty,Wh,f,Jatullah Unraced

1983 Anotherworldcoming,Dkbbr,f,Mickey Mcguire Unraced

1984 Barren

1985 Late 'n White,Wh,f,Triomphe Unraced

1987 Silent World,Gr,f,Silent Dignity Unraced

1988 Not Covered Previous Year

1989 Mickey's World,Dkbbr,c,Mickey Mcguire 2 6 0 2 0 5,480 ( 73) 0.76
North America Dirt Sprints 4 0 0 0 840 ( 57)
North America Dirt Routes 2 0 2 0 4,640 ( 73)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 0 ( 52)

1990 Barren

CA Michael
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Postby CA Michael » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:34 pm

WARNING: As in any enterprise, those seeking advice in TB breeding decisions should seek and take counsel from those people with proven track records. Claiming horses can be bred by anyone, without much effort or skill. Stakes horses, especially those of graded caliber, are a much safer litmus test of a breeder's accomplishments. Opinions, as they say, are like relatives; everyone has them. Adhere to the advice of people who have been breeding horses for more than a few days and you'll be better off.

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Postby Winnie » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:24 pm

Nice try Michael :roll: The statistics above on Ca. Stakes Winners (not sires) alone prove there is something to what I say. I didn't pick any horses at random, I didn't choose horses from a state where they are quality bred.

You know very well I have done pretty darn good so far in this business, my stats which were listed on another thread prove that. I have produced a few quality allowances winners (from a handfull of starters), one who could have easily been a Stakes horse if it wasn't for a trainer who worked him just a few days before....bullet works each time before his 2 stakes races. And I have done extremely well in the sale ring and through private sales. For someone who has been doing this all his life, how long did it take you to get a quality runner? A lot longer than it took me I'm sure.

At least I have never in my life been in debt or owed a soul money. I am known for my integrity :wink: If you can play this game/business and be able to do that and come out ahead, even if it means NEVER producing a stakes winner...you are doing good.

By the way how many Graded stakes horses have you produced...or stakes winners for that matter?

I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone...those statistics above speak for themselves. What do I care if people want to throw their money away and breed poor quality stock...better competition for me (although I hate to see their offspring end up at the killers) If just one person can learn like I did to upgrade their mares and choose better sires, then I am happy I have at least helped someone.
Last edited by Winnie on Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:46 pm, edited 7 times in total.