I everybody. I've recently come across info about multicolored thouroughbreds from the USA. Are they seriously by a 100% genuine thourughbred heritage? Seems strange that they suddenly just appear in the states and are nowhere to be found in Europe?
Can someone please tell me more!
Best regards alezan
Multicolored thouroughbreds
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Skipitgirl
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Check out this website. It tells all about colored TBS.
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColour ... breds.html
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColour ... breds.html
Skipitgirl wrote:Check out this website. It tells all about colored TBS.
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColour ... breds.html
Thank's for your reply. Altough I've already seen that website and it is of course a promotion site for the colored horses.
The thing is I've been studying thourughbred pedigrees for almost 25 years and I have never come across horses like this.
I also live in europe and in europe we've never got any colorful horses like this.
This makes me and my friends very suspicous since after all these horses first turned up in North America tha home land of the Pinto Horse.
There is one colorful horse exported horse from the states - I was Framed - to Europe registred in Weatherbys and that's it!
Seems very odd that there really is no interference of mix with pintos or anything similar in these horses. How on earth do they only turn up in the states?
America prizes them. So breeders here breed for him.
Birdcatcher, 1833 (IRE), was a chestnut horse with white spots. Hence, the spots that appear sometimes are referred to as "Birdcatcher spots."
There have always been Thoroughbreds with some degree of color, but the registries have firmly registered them only with the base color, ie: chestnut, bay, black.
Another registry, which eschews color, is the Quarter Horse registry. It steadfastly refused to even "register" any Quarter Horse born with body white.
Birdcatcher, 1833 (IRE), was a chestnut horse with white spots. Hence, the spots that appear sometimes are referred to as "Birdcatcher spots."
There have always been Thoroughbreds with some degree of color, but the registries have firmly registered them only with the base color, ie: chestnut, bay, black.
Another registry, which eschews color, is the Quarter Horse registry. It steadfastly refused to even "register" any Quarter Horse born with body white.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Interestingly enough it's obviuos amongst all the sites I've visited in this matter and all the horses I've found they all have one thing in common they always one way or another descend from a competely unknown US. bred sire and maternal-lines.
If there in fact had shown up horses with this coloring all over the world it would be believable but these horses suddenly appeared in the States and nowhere else not even in britain who really is the cradle and base for all the thouroughbreds!
If there in fact had shown up horses with this coloring all over the world it would be believable but these horses suddenly appeared in the States and nowhere else not even in britain who really is the cradle and base for all the thouroughbreds!
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColour ... binos.html
Master Magpie can be found in quite a number of warmbloods.
The Quarter horse registry is now registering all painted horses. There are already some examples of some very loudly colored ones that have been registered.
Master Magpie can be found in quite a number of warmbloods.
The Quarter horse registry is now registering all painted horses. There are already some examples of some very loudly colored ones that have been registered.
Peter McCue was actually an appendix - his sire was QH, his dam a TB. Here's an excerpted blurb about PM.
1895 - 1923
Considered to be one of the truly foundation sires of the American Quarter Horse, Peter McCue was by Dan Tucker & out of Nora M. Known for his blazing speed, he reportedly ran a quarter in 21 flat,- a time that wasn't matched for decades to come. His popularity was assured when he passed his talent for speed on to his get.
[It should be noted that, with false information, he was registered as a TB for racing opportunities. He reportedly sired 20 'TBs' listed in the American Stud Book.]
Peter McCue was the genesis of many a Quarter Horse line. He was the sire of Harmon Baker, Badger, Hickory Bill, Chief, Shiek, great grandsire of Wimpy P-1, etc. He was inducted into the AQHA Hall of Fame in 1991.
1895 - 1923
Considered to be one of the truly foundation sires of the American Quarter Horse, Peter McCue was by Dan Tucker & out of Nora M. Known for his blazing speed, he reportedly ran a quarter in 21 flat,- a time that wasn't matched for decades to come. His popularity was assured when he passed his talent for speed on to his get.
[It should be noted that, with false information, he was registered as a TB for racing opportunities. He reportedly sired 20 'TBs' listed in the American Stud Book.]
Peter McCue was the genesis of many a Quarter Horse line. He was the sire of Harmon Baker, Badger, Hickory Bill, Chief, Shiek, great grandsire of Wimpy P-1, etc. He was inducted into the AQHA Hall of Fame in 1991.
Justice: When you get what you deserve.
Mercy: When you don't get what you deserve.
Grace: When you get what you don't deserve.
Mercy: When you don't get what you deserve.
Grace: When you get what you don't deserve.
when thinking about colorful TBs bear in mind that there are different kinds--the cream gene, white markings due to frame overo, and white markings due to sabino/splash (aka white markings for which we don't know the mode of inheritance!).
Cream has cropped up independently twice at least (Milkie, Lucky Two Bits/Glitter Please). Because cream is inherited as an incomplete dominant, it will show up on chestnut and bay base coats which comprise the bulk of TB colors. Based on this, I find it very hard to believe that it has been in the gene pool for generations hiding under gray or black or as mis-identified palomino/buckskin. Based on this, I would assume that it appeared close (generationally) to where it cropped up. This could be the result of a fence-hopping or a mutation. With Milkie for example, his parentage was questioned. If I remember correctly, they settled the issue by saying that his sire threw a particular type of foot which Milkie apparently had. To my knowledge, however, there have been no genetic studies confirming the paternity of cream cropouts.
Frame overo is also an incomplete dominant (lethal in homozygous form), and it can be much more subtle than cream. I could see how this one could skip a couple generations. We owe these to Patchy Lassy and Blue Gazi (or his maternal grand-dam Kiowa Miss?), although you could probably trace them back further than that. Again, I don't know of any genetic testing which could confirm a mutation or an impure line.
White markings which we call 'sabino' and/or 'splash' markings do not IMO signify non-TB blood. These patterns are the result of a combination of multiple genetic and environmental factors and have been present in thoroughbreds since the beginning. Sometimes they appear quite prominently. I would add that the white TBs we are seeing increasingly seem to be governed by some dominant or incomplete dominant gene which I believe arose multiple times in thoroughbreds. You would have a hard time constructing a fence-jumping argument here as these patterns are exceedingly rare in other breeds. The incomplete-dominant gene sabino-1 (SB-1) found in TWHs and the like has not been identified in sabino-looking TBs so you can't reasonably blame flashy TBs on TWH blood. Whatever factor(s) causes the white markings in clydesdales I would argue acts differently than what we see in TBs (although they could be the same thing expressing differently in different breeds), and I have a hard time believing that a half-clydesdale would be able to slip inconspicuously into the TB gene pool. Certainly I would argue that at the very least, the sources of these patterns (Puchilingui, Not Quite White, etc) certainly look like TBs to me.
Just my 2 cents--I think someone should to genetic testing to confirm the paternity of these crop-outs. It's not too late, as you could test their progeny against known descendents of the sires in question.
Cream has cropped up independently twice at least (Milkie, Lucky Two Bits/Glitter Please). Because cream is inherited as an incomplete dominant, it will show up on chestnut and bay base coats which comprise the bulk of TB colors. Based on this, I find it very hard to believe that it has been in the gene pool for generations hiding under gray or black or as mis-identified palomino/buckskin. Based on this, I would assume that it appeared close (generationally) to where it cropped up. This could be the result of a fence-hopping or a mutation. With Milkie for example, his parentage was questioned. If I remember correctly, they settled the issue by saying that his sire threw a particular type of foot which Milkie apparently had. To my knowledge, however, there have been no genetic studies confirming the paternity of cream cropouts.
Frame overo is also an incomplete dominant (lethal in homozygous form), and it can be much more subtle than cream. I could see how this one could skip a couple generations. We owe these to Patchy Lassy and Blue Gazi (or his maternal grand-dam Kiowa Miss?), although you could probably trace them back further than that. Again, I don't know of any genetic testing which could confirm a mutation or an impure line.
White markings which we call 'sabino' and/or 'splash' markings do not IMO signify non-TB blood. These patterns are the result of a combination of multiple genetic and environmental factors and have been present in thoroughbreds since the beginning. Sometimes they appear quite prominently. I would add that the white TBs we are seeing increasingly seem to be governed by some dominant or incomplete dominant gene which I believe arose multiple times in thoroughbreds. You would have a hard time constructing a fence-jumping argument here as these patterns are exceedingly rare in other breeds. The incomplete-dominant gene sabino-1 (SB-1) found in TWHs and the like has not been identified in sabino-looking TBs so you can't reasonably blame flashy TBs on TWH blood. Whatever factor(s) causes the white markings in clydesdales I would argue acts differently than what we see in TBs (although they could be the same thing expressing differently in different breeds), and I have a hard time believing that a half-clydesdale would be able to slip inconspicuously into the TB gene pool. Certainly I would argue that at the very least, the sources of these patterns (Puchilingui, Not Quite White, etc) certainly look like TBs to me.
Just my 2 cents--I think someone should to genetic testing to confirm the paternity of these crop-outs. It's not too late, as you could test their progeny against known descendents of the sires in question.
Alezan, I know you are not trying to imply that American thoroughbreds are somehow inferior, or less well bred, due to the appearance of color..
The American and British Thoroughbred studbooks were "open" until the last century. The Thoroughbred breed is descended from three Arabian stallions and a group of 35 or so English mares, mostly Hobby horses. However, other horses were "bred in" until the stud books closed. There HAVE been instances of colored Thoroughbreds elsewhere. Like the Quarter Horse book, though, they were sometimes refused registration.
Color patterns are also formed in response to external stimulus while in the uterus. The Appaloosa horse evolved with its color patterns as a natural camouflage for the area it inhabited.
The American and British Thoroughbred studbooks were "open" until the last century. The Thoroughbred breed is descended from three Arabian stallions and a group of 35 or so English mares, mostly Hobby horses. However, other horses were "bred in" until the stud books closed. There HAVE been instances of colored Thoroughbreds elsewhere. Like the Quarter Horse book, though, they were sometimes refused registration.
Color patterns are also formed in response to external stimulus while in the uterus. The Appaloosa horse evolved with its color patterns as a natural camouflage for the area it inhabited.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Prior to 1977 there was no blood typing let alone DNA typing that started in 2001. I know for a fact many unregistered and unknown pedigree mares have gone through sale rings with thoroughbred papers because the markings fit. I remember when JC papers would often list the sire as more than one horse because of exposure to more than one stud. There is doubtful integrity of the pedigrees of any breed until recently, especially in the female lines. I seriously doubt the pedigree of a lot of the "colored" TB's. By the way there were no horses in America until the 1600's when they were brought over by the Spaniards. Personally I would like to see a little infusion of new lines since TB's have just about achieved all the vigor possible. Quarter horses are getting markedly faster while TB's are leveled out and possibly in decline.