As I scan the pedigree pages at many of the major sales for breeding and racing stock i see more and more horses with (CHI) or (ARG) in the bloodlines. Some have only a generation or two, some are all "other countries" stock.
Here's the question. I see alot of Black Type, but then I see the country designation, and since i know nothing about it, I immediately throw-out the prospect. Can anyone tell me: what is the value of internationally won black type compared to winning US black type events? How do you judge the value of an international pedigree? Thoughts?
Thanks, Dray
What is the value of international pedigree?
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Generally speaking, listed or graded/group wins in any of the major European racing nations, Australia, New Zealand, and the major South American racing nations (Argentina, Brazil, Chile) can be considered as equivalent to similar wins in the USA. I would be slow to discount group wins in Peru also; they have turned out some very good horses despite having much smaller foal crops than South America's Big 3. South African horses such as *Hawaii, *Colorado King, and Horse Chestnut have also shown very good form in the USA, but we just don't see too many horses from South Africa to get an idea of how overall form stacks up.
South American horses from the major racing nations have a long and honorable record of competition in North America and include such recent standouts as Siphon (Brz), Gentlemen (Arg), Candy Ride (Arg), Lido Palace (Chi), Wild Spirit (Chi), Miss Linda (Arg), Sandpit (Brz), Redattore (Brz), and Hard Buck (Brz), all G1 winners in North America. As breeding stock, they have had their problems in North America, but this is probably due to divergence between the overall Thoroughbred populations (particularly among female families) in North and South America; many old South American lines have a strongly European flavor.
The more familiar you are with international racing, the better you can judge the relative qualities of races at a given group or grade. Germany, for example, has much stronger competition in races at 2400m for 3yos and up than it has in sprints and races for juveniles. Another example: most people would probably consider a Group 3 win in a hotly contested juvenile event at Royal Ascot to have a bit more weight than a Group 3 at, say, Ayr, that might draw only three or four starters. What a horse beat and how he beat it is quite as important as the grade or group, if not more so, and this is just as true in the USA as it is anywhere else.
South American horses from the major racing nations have a long and honorable record of competition in North America and include such recent standouts as Siphon (Brz), Gentlemen (Arg), Candy Ride (Arg), Lido Palace (Chi), Wild Spirit (Chi), Miss Linda (Arg), Sandpit (Brz), Redattore (Brz), and Hard Buck (Brz), all G1 winners in North America. As breeding stock, they have had their problems in North America, but this is probably due to divergence between the overall Thoroughbred populations (particularly among female families) in North and South America; many old South American lines have a strongly European flavor.
The more familiar you are with international racing, the better you can judge the relative qualities of races at a given group or grade. Germany, for example, has much stronger competition in races at 2400m for 3yos and up than it has in sprints and races for juveniles. Another example: most people would probably consider a Group 3 win in a hotly contested juvenile event at Royal Ascot to have a bit more weight than a Group 3 at, say, Ayr, that might draw only three or four starters. What a horse beat and how he beat it is quite as important as the grade or group, if not more so, and this is just as true in the USA as it is anywhere else.
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louis finochio
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marknickolas
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Alan Shuback has a great section on 'European Racing' in the handicapping book "Bet With The Best" published by the Daily Racing Form. It's from a handicapping perspective but he breaks down all the races in Europe (no South America, unfortunately) and categorizes them within stakes class. Excellent perspective.
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BookieBuster
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Mahubah wrote:... but we just don't see too many horses from South Africa to get an idea of how overall form stacks up.
We may be about to find out. According to the Team Valor website, they have imported 5 South African fillies last year and are about to debut them in Florida.
Didn't Ipi Tombe come from South Africa? She ran great against international competition in Dubai, then came here and won at Churchill.
There was also a South African filly name Spook Express who ran exceptionally well against American competition in Graded races. I think that was 4 or 5 years ago now.
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BookieBuster
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henthorn wrote:Ipi Tombe was a South African champion, and also raced in Dubai. She was born however in Zimbabwe.
Yes, I know. She was born in Zimbabwe, a neighbouring nation to South Africa, and was sired by a stallion who began his career in Zimbabwe because he was determined to be not good enough to stand in S. Africa. He has since been moved to South Africa.
But since Ipi Tombe raced a lot in South Africa, I thought that might give evidence of the value of form in that country, the point of this thread. Especially since she came out of Africa and continued to win against international competition.
That's all I meant by "she came from South Africa".
I wonder if Team Valor has another one like her in the barn.