Personally, I think the only way these 2yo in training sales can be reigned in is to educate the buyers about the high probability for failure. Speed kills, as they say.
IMO the sport would be much better off without these QH wannabee sales previews. Let them BREEZE (the old-fashioned breeze, one step up from a fast gallop; not the 10 second quarter 'breezes' the pinhookers have invented). Adena Springs' "breeze only" approach is far better for the sport, the animals and the purchasers--and they have a track record of producing ROI's far higher than other 2yo sales companies.
Or, even better, forget the previews altogether and return to a world where yearling sales are the sole source of racehorses. Force consignors to stop using steroids, HGH, and all other artificial means of sales preparation, and we'll start having much larger fields, filled with horses who race more than a handful of times.
Pinhookers have worn out their welcome in the horse business.
Two year old sales should be retired
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
There is nothing new or not understood about the 2yold sales that was not new or understood 15 years ago. This game is a gamble and these sales are part of the game within the game.
As long as there are the occasional gems to be had, the deep pocket buyers will compete and buy.
No question the overall failure record for these horses is a documented fact.
As long as there are the occasional gems to be had, the deep pocket buyers will compete and buy.
No question the overall failure record for these horses is a documented fact.
They should still have them, but they should limit them to gallop only. If somebody can't pick out a horse by watching him gallop shouldn't be spending that kind of money anyways. Buying a 2yo based on a 10 second 1/8th is like buying a yearling because Keeneland announced it had an A nick while the horse is in the ring.
too weird to live...too rare to die
www.ascotstudfarm.com
www.ascotstudfarm.com
I was watching some of those workouts, and the way some of them are slapping their legs down on the track looks incredibly jarring.
Also, how about a video of them walking? As well as a slow gallop? Seems to em that would show more.
Also, how about a video of them walking? As well as a slow gallop? Seems to em that would show more.
All shouting does is make you lose your voice.
----Arrested Development
----Arrested Development
I heard that some QH jocks were being paid $500 per horse to work them during the training previews to ensure a good time. This is getting ridiculous. I counted only about 70 unique buyers at Barretts. 90% of those people have to know that speed kills. WHAT is the driving factor in making these babies scoot as fast as they can for a crummy eighth, which means nothing to a TB? Buyers ought to line up to sign a petition asking consignors not to go faster than :12.
"When I am on my deathbed, I imagine I will say, 'Thank God I did that'" - Arthur Hancock, on buying back Gato del Sol from Europe after Exceller was killed in a slaughterhouse in Sweden.
Thanks to all the learned folks on this board I have learned what the "proper" catalog page should look like for buying. All my picks yesterday were waaaay out of my financial league. 2 yr old in training sales have a very narrow demographic in a sport that is suffering decline. The number of buybacks makes it look like more of a social event. I enjoyed it but there were several that made me shake my head for even being started they looked so immature. Agree with AscotStud.
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Tucumcari
- Chef de Race: Brilliant
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Toccet02 wrote:I was watching some of those workouts, and the way some of them are slapping their legs down on the track looks incredibly jarring.
Also, how about a video of them walking? As well as a slow gallop? Seems to em that would show more.
What changes in the way they hit the ground as they mature? Buy with the untent to turn out for a month or two.... though there was zero value at Barrett's.
Proverbs 31:8
"...stand up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all those who are destitute.."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QawYXs2e ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIASWv9GYC8
"...stand up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all those who are destitute.."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QawYXs2e ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIASWv9GYC8
This is a tough one. I can tell you from experience, speed sells, and speed works, on average. That's the truth, and that's the problem. Look at the recent Throughbred Times article (February 2, 2008):
Something for everyone by John P. Sparkman
"Table 1 summarizes data from the ten most important sales of two-year-olds in training - alphabetically... for horses sold at those ten sales from 1997 through 2006. Remarkably enough, the 23,333 horses sold at those ten sales over that ten-year window have earned back 95.2% of their $1.45-billion total purchase price. That is a far higher percentage than graduates of yearling sales manage." Not even close.
You can't eliminate the two year-old sales, too many people like them. But the market is changing. I speak from experience when I tell you that the rewards today are being played at the upper market. The middle market is currently dead. If you have a perfect horse that breezes well, your "in the chips"... but any flaws, slower works, you're going to be penalized.
I think that 40% buybacks is becoming the norm, yearling or two year old sale. Noor is right, on several accounts. First, breeders for the yearling market need to stop with the steroid silliness. And two year old consignors need to offer other types of horses and breezes for people that don't like these crazy breezes. Problem is, the market keeps demanding top speed, year after year. It has created a very tough scene, with almost every horse falling in the same range, 10 to 11 seconds for an eighth. How can you tell a difference? Nearly EVERY horse. I would think you could tell MORE from a slower breeze, a more natural gallop. We showed that to the market this year at Calder... the market just yawned.
Blame the two year old sales. Blame the breeders. The real blame could be seen as the buyers. But remember, all three are simply responding to market demands.
Look at the Adena Sale, if you want to see the safest and soundest way to buy a race horse. The numbers are staggering:
http://www.adenastallions.com/sales/med ... 20Sale.wmv
Everything changes. I hope for change for the better.
Something for everyone by John P. Sparkman
"Table 1 summarizes data from the ten most important sales of two-year-olds in training - alphabetically... for horses sold at those ten sales from 1997 through 2006. Remarkably enough, the 23,333 horses sold at those ten sales over that ten-year window have earned back 95.2% of their $1.45-billion total purchase price. That is a far higher percentage than graduates of yearling sales manage." Not even close.
You can't eliminate the two year-old sales, too many people like them. But the market is changing. I speak from experience when I tell you that the rewards today are being played at the upper market. The middle market is currently dead. If you have a perfect horse that breezes well, your "in the chips"... but any flaws, slower works, you're going to be penalized.
I think that 40% buybacks is becoming the norm, yearling or two year old sale. Noor is right, on several accounts. First, breeders for the yearling market need to stop with the steroid silliness. And two year old consignors need to offer other types of horses and breezes for people that don't like these crazy breezes. Problem is, the market keeps demanding top speed, year after year. It has created a very tough scene, with almost every horse falling in the same range, 10 to 11 seconds for an eighth. How can you tell a difference? Nearly EVERY horse. I would think you could tell MORE from a slower breeze, a more natural gallop. We showed that to the market this year at Calder... the market just yawned.
Blame the two year old sales. Blame the breeders. The real blame could be seen as the buyers. But remember, all three are simply responding to market demands.
Look at the Adena Sale, if you want to see the safest and soundest way to buy a race horse. The numbers are staggering:
http://www.adenastallions.com/sales/med ... 20Sale.wmv
Everything changes. I hope for change for the better.
Needles
Surely everyone who buys at 2yo sales regularly know that the folks who ALWAYS have the fastest times are juicing those horses.
There is nothing, repeat, nothing that a trainer can do to a horse between the Sept. yearling sales and March 2yo sales to make a horse go 10 or sub 10 without some help, either in the joints, or in the blood, or both.
Some of them fly in their own vet to work quietly in the stalls before the works.
Solution is simple: TEST.
Buyers Beware. They are the ones who should demands all breezing horses get tested just like race horses.
Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, and a few consignors, not most, get rich on the game.
There is nothing, repeat, nothing that a trainer can do to a horse between the Sept. yearling sales and March 2yo sales to make a horse go 10 or sub 10 without some help, either in the joints, or in the blood, or both.
Some of them fly in their own vet to work quietly in the stalls before the works.
Solution is simple: TEST.
Buyers Beware. They are the ones who should demands all breezing horses get tested just like race horses.
Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, and a few consignors, not most, get rich on the game.
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springboro
- Grade II Winner
- Posts: 1305
- Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:53 am
interesting thread...
2 of my recent broodmare purchases both are 1/2 sibs to fastest under tack OBS sale 2 year olds. I had used that as a yardstick- if their dams had produced such speedy foals before (which also then sold quite well) then surely at some point it would improve the catalog page.
nope... both of these speedy two year old 1/2 sibs never broke their maidens. Actually, one showed great talent but had all kinds of soundness issues.
my 2 cents observation
2 of my recent broodmare purchases both are 1/2 sibs to fastest under tack OBS sale 2 year olds. I had used that as a yardstick- if their dams had produced such speedy foals before (which also then sold quite well) then surely at some point it would improve the catalog page.
nope... both of these speedy two year old 1/2 sibs never broke their maidens. Actually, one showed great talent but had all kinds of soundness issues.
my 2 cents observation
Tucumcari wrote:Toccet02 wrote:I was watching some of those workouts, and the way some of them are slapping their legs down on the track looks incredibly jarring.
Also, how about a video of them walking? As well as a slow gallop? Seems to em that would show more.
What changes in the way they hit the ground as they mature? Buy with the untent to turn out for a month or two.... though there was zero value at Barrett's.
I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I think what would change in the way the feet hit the ground would be from less speed; i.e. rating; more sensible bursts of speed. Do you agree that a horse pushed to a 10 second eighth runs more frantically and more concussively* than one putting in a good solid move around the turn in a mile race? Or am I totally wrong here?
* I think I just made up this word, or at least spelled it disastrously wrong.
All shouting does is make you lose your voice.
----Arrested Development
----Arrested Development
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wilf
- Breeder's Cup Contender
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- Location: Ocala, Florida.
These sales are disgusting and it's not what you think you are seeing that is the worst angle. I am here in the thick of it all in Ocala and I find that the most disagreeable theme is the fact that these babies are pushed along to get to the sales while their bodies are crying out for just one person to say "stop" . Just somebody with an ounce of common sense and patience to notice a particular horse that would benefit by NOT trying to get to the sale because this is insane!! A horse is sore and has zero chance of making a good presence in the ring afterwards and will probably not fetch the reserve,however in 3 months time will be good to go on and be a success perhaps. So many are ruined by greed and impatience, what a waste!