Best TB broodmare sire of the Twentieth Century???

[vineyridge]

My money would be on Discovery.
Miss Disco--Bold Ruler
Geisha--Native Dancer
My Recipe--Intentionally

What sort of offspring spring when descendants of those ubiquitous stallions are bred together? I'm talking physical and mental. Any commonly recurring traits in horses line bred to him?

Reason I ask is that he is Display by Hastings, and the Hastings line has a well deserved reputation for pure nasty.

[xfactor fan]

Secretariat

Storm Cat
AP Indy
Gone West
Summer Squall

A good case could be made for Princequillo

Secretariat
Sham
Kris S (or is it Kris)
And a whole host of others.

[DDT]

I think a case can be made for Buckpasser as well with mares such as

Alluvial
Con Game
Lassie Dear
Numbered Account
Passing Mood
Relaxing
Sex Appeal
Toll Both

DDT

[zinn21]

Prince John

[vineyridge]

The title should have been North American broodmare sires, but you all figured that out. I was not talking about racing success of the daughter's offspring when I asked.

It's the long term effect on the breed that was the criterion for my choice. I chose Discovery because it seems to me that there are only three very active NA sire lines today and they all derive from one of those three daughters of his. You can't get much more prevalent than Native Dancer or Bold Ruler, and the Intent line is about the last one left over here from Man O 'War. (I admit that there are other sires out there from other lines that are hanging on, but these are flourishing.)

In another fifty years we'll see how Secretariat stacks up.

I love Buckpasser, and maybe his daughter's sons will have the same long term effect that Discovery and Secretariat's have.

I can't see how Princequillo has made the same impact through his daughter's sons that either Secretariat or Discovery has.

Prince John? Why?

[Bill from WA]

Hi

I have to throw in Mr Prospector, but his impact as a broodmare sire will probably be felt more in the 21st century.

Bill

[Keith]

My vote would go out to Buckpasser and Mahmoud,

Top Broodmare sires

Weekend Surprise by Secretariat-Lassie Dear by Buckpasser
Easy Goer by Alydar-Relaxing by Buckpasser
Cadillacing by Alydar-Relaxing by Buckpasser
Slew O Gold by Seattle Slew-Alluvial by Buckpasser
Coastal by Majestic Prince-Alluvial by Buckpasser
Private Account by Damascus-Numbered Account by Buckpasser
Dance Number by Northern Dancer-Numbered Account by Buckpasser
Polish Numbers by Danzig-Numbered Account by Buckpasser
Plugged Nickle by Key To The Mint-Toll Booth by Buckpasser
Christiecat by Majestic Light-Toll Booth by Buckpasser
Touch Gold by Deputy Minister-Passing Mood by Buckpasser
With Approval by Caro-Passing Mood by Buckpasser
Seeking The Gold by Mr. Prospector-Con Game by Buckpasser
Fast Play by Seattle Slew-Con Game by Buckpasser
El Gran Senor by Northern Dancer-Sex Appeal by Buckpasser
Try My Best by Northern Dancer-Sex Appeal by Buckpasser
Miswaki by Mr. Prospector-Homespringeternal by Buckpasser
Woodman by Mr. Prospector-Playmate by Buckpasser
Wavering Monarch by Majestic Light-Uncommitted by Buckpasser


Buckpasser by Tom Fool-Busanda by War Admiral
Better Self by Bimelech-Bee Mac by War Admiral
Glamour by Nasrullah-Striking by War Admiral
Hitting Away by Ambiorix-Striking by War Admiral
Jet Action by Jet Pilot-Busher by War Admiral
Hoist The Flag by Tom Rolfe-Wavy Navy by War Admiral
Iron Reward by Beau Pere-Iron Maiden by War Admiral

Mr. Prospector by Raise a Native-Gold Digger by Nashua
Roberto by Hail To Reason-Bramalea by Nashua

Northern Dancer by Nearctic-Natalma by Native Dancer
Ruffian by Reviewer-Shenanigans by Native Dancer
Icecapade by Nearctic-Shenanigans by Native Dancer

Natalma by Native Dancer-Almahmoud by Mahmoud
Cosmah by Cosmic Bomb-Almahmoud by Mahmoud
What A Pleasure by Bold Ruler-Grey Flight by Mahmoud
Bold Princess by Bold Ruler-Grey Flight by Mahmoud
Misty Morn by Princequillo-Grey Flight by Mahmoud
Clear Ceiling by Bold Ruler-Grey Flight by Mahmoud
Flower Bed by Beau Pere-Boudoir by Mahmoud
Your Hostess by Alibhai-Boudir by Mahmoud
Your Host by Alibhai-Boudir by Mahmoud
Cool Mood by Northern Dancer-Happy Mood by Mahmoud
Promised Land by Palestinian-Mahmoudness by Mahmoud
Silver Spoon by Citation-Silver Fog by Mahmoud
Silver Bright by Barbizon-Silver Fog by Mahmoud
Silver true by Hail T Reason-Silver Fog by Mahmoud



Keith

[vineyridge]

I'll give you Buckpasser and Mahmoud.

But Discovery was also the sire of Traffic Court, and she was a producer of some great horses that just haven't quite had the impact on the breed that the other mares I named have had.

[Tucumcari]

I'd go to Buckpasser as well.

[George William Smith]

Nasrullah

Of over 26000 thoroughbreds running in North America in 2008, Nasrullah as the sire of the 4th dam of their pedigrees occurs more than any other sire. I chose the 4th dam because all the sire and broodmare sire stats are in for sires of the 4th dam. This is without regard to crop size or year of birth.

Nasrullah appears as the sire of the 4th dam of 313 runners. Princequillo is #2 as he has 310 runners but had 60 more foals so he had quite a bit bigger crop of foals to work with. So quite clearly, Nasrullah is the best broodmare sire. There is a significant gap after these two and Double Jay is ranked third.

Discovery is nowhere near the top of the list. Just because a daughter or two produce really well does not make it or Discovery would appear tail-female in much greater numbers [through daughters].

[vineyridge]

I give up.

But think what a totally different TB world we would have today without (especially) the sons of Discovery's daughters.

[Mahubah]

Vineyridge, re your question about crossing the lines of the stallions descended from Discovery: if nasty temper shows up, it probably wouldn't be Discovery's fault. By all accounts he was a complete gentleman despite his great size and power, a 180-degree turnaround from his sire.

I think we have to distinguish between influence and overall quality as a broodmare sire. Discovery has wielded tremendous influence, but only through four daughters who became the dams of important stallions. His overall record as a maternal grandsire was not nearly so stellar, as George correctly points out. As far as overall quality of "grandfoals" go, The Jockey Club credits *Nasrullah with 159 stakes winners from 1443 foals produced by his daughters (11.0%) and an average earnings index (AEI) of 2.58 for those foals, both extremely high figures for a broodmare sire. Buckpasser is credited with 138 stakes winners from 1410 foals (9.8%) and has an extremely high AEI of 3.15 for those foals. Most horses considered good broodmare sires have around 7-8% stakes winners from foals produced by their daughters, and a horse that gets to 10% or better SWs as a broodmare sire, or even flirts with that figure, is truly elite. So far, the figures for Mr. Prospector are 3929 foals, of which 335 (8.5%) have become stakes winners, and his AEI as a maternal grandsire is 2.04 -- not shabby at all, if not quite up there with *Nasrullah and Buckpasser.

For the record, TJC shows Discovery as the maternal grandsire of 825 foals, 555 of which won (67.3%) and 39 of which became stakes winners (4.7%). He apparently did pass on his own excellent constitution fairly reliably, hence the high percentage of winners, but not nearly as much of the talent came through.

[Keith]

Top 5 mares influencing pedigrees today

1. Somethingroyal
2. Weekend Surprise
3. Special
4. Natalma
5. Almahmoud

Top 5 Sires influencing pedigrees today

1. Northern Dancer
2. Mr. Prospector
3. Raise A Native
4. Native Dancer
5. Hail To Reason

Maybe I may be wrong but I am probably not far off.

If I had to choose a top broodmare sire today it would be Deputy Minister or Mr. Prospector

Best Broodmare sire of all time-Princequillo especially being the broodmare sire of Secretariat.
Keith

[Mahubah]

Not sure my money wouldn't be on *Rock Sand. Aside from being the maternal grandsire of the magnificent Man o' War, available stats from TJC credit him as being the broodmare sire of 218 foals, of which an incredible 32 (14.7%) became stakes winners. Given that Major Belmont owned the vast majority of his American-sired daughters and that he had a strong prejudice against racing fillies more than very lightly -- meaning that many of *Rock Sand's daughters and granddaughters never raced at all or made only a few starts for reasons other than unsoundness -- his record could have been still better. His AEI of 1.30 is deceptively low as purses in his day had much less of a spread between what a good stakes horse could earn compared to an ordinary winner.

*Rock Sand's progeny as a maternal grandsire include U.S. leading sire Chatterton; U.S. champion handicap male Mad Hatter; the brilliant *Epinard, widely considered the best European runner of his day; Preakness Stakes winner Broomspun; Belmont Stakes winners Mad Play and *Hourless; Diolite, winner of the Two Thousand Guineas; Mlle. Dazie, a stakes winner and dam of champion Jamestown; Quelle Chance, dam of champion Chance Play and Belmont Stakes winner Chance Shot; Blue Glass, dam of Belmont Stakes winner Hurryoff and Polynesian's sire, Unbreakable; and Stephanie, second dam of Count Fleet.

[majxmom]

Just talking off the top of my head here, but how about Double Jay? There is John Henry, of course, but I think he also was pretty good with a lot of his other mares as well, considering his limited opportunities.

On second reading, I withdraw that. Certainly not the BEST broodmare sire of the 20th century. But still, I think he did well with Old Bob Bowers to his mares!