nicks ratings

foothillsequine · Postby **foothillsequine** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:47 am

How much stock do owners, breeders etc., put into nicks ratings? Do the "A" numbers indicate a better percentage of winners vs "C or D" (for example)? Are you more likely to buy a yearling or weanling based on nick ratings if you like the conformation etc? Or is it yet just another way for someone to increase their bank account? Does anyone look at the GSV? Or a combination of both?

I am not sure if this is the right place for this, so feel free to move it wherever...

winds · Postby **winds** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:01 pm

Nicks are a good tool, but remember that, a tool, not for certain. It's based on statistics, so if no one has bred the broodmare line to the sireline it will be an F nick.

winds

foothillsequine · Postby **foothillsequine** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:15 pm

Thanks Winds. So, in other words, an "F" nick does not mean it's bad, it just means that you are forging new ground with the broodmare line?

Do I have that right?

winds · Postby **winds** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:53 pm

It could especially if they don't have any stake horses to report. I've seen nicks where there were gr I and II winners from that nick be considered a C nick or worse. If it seems right to you and the mare and stallion work conformationally go for it.

winds

foothillsequine · Postby **foothillsequine** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:59 pm

Thanks again Winds, I appreciate your help and expertise!

Patuxet · Postby **Patuxet** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:59 am

When it comes to nicks it's definitely "caveat emptor" -- let the buyer beware. Nicks should be taken with the proverbial "grain of salt", especially when the two competing nicking systems come up with diametrically opposed ratings.

I have a mare whose current mating rates an A with True Nicks and a D+ with eNicks. I only found this out after I'd determined that this breeding stood a good chance of getting me what I was looking for in a foal. If you know what you want and what you're doing, then forget about nicks. They're the lazy man's tool.

LB · Postby LB » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:54 am

Nicks are to breeding what first grade is to education. They're a way to point you in the right direction before you get started on the serious work of planning a mating.

Don't forget, too, that the nicking systems that currently exist only take stallions into account. As far as they're concerned, mares and female families are invisible and unimportant.

foothillsequine · Postby **foothillsequine** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:54 am

LB wrote:Nicks are to breeding what first grade is to education. They're a way to point you in the right direction before you get started on the serious work of planning a mating.

Don't forget, too, that the nicking systems that currently exist only take stallions into account. As far as they're concerned, mares and female families are invisible and unimportant.

That mentality really bothers me, there would not be any stallions without the mare. I purchase my mares based upon race records, as well as soundness, as I believe they pass on their ability to the babies. I realize the sire line is important, but I also think the female line is equally as important.

Perhaps someone could develop a nicking system that takes ALL of the DNA into account, and not just the male bias.

Thanks all for your responses.

Dave C · Postby **Dave C** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:25 am

You can't develop meaningful statistical model for mares because the samples are too small. The other side of that is that even if you just use the stallions in a pedigree you can account for 95%+ of the genetics in a pedigree. Havind said that, I don't bother with nicks. I might look at them after the fact as a curiousity, but that's all.

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:32 am

I agree with Dave C in concept - on the other hand you might be able to develop statistical data from the success, or lack thereof, of a mare family with a sireline. I think there is as much validity

to that concept as there is to sire nicks. For example, if you have a mare from family 8f, and a sire from the Northern Dancer line, you could construct a model from that. What line is it that 23b is hitting so consistently with right now?

As to sireline nicks, I pretty much ignore them completely. Any sort of crude tool like that will have its results reflected more articulately, and much more completely, in a better tool like G1 Goldmine.

louis finochio · Postby **louis finochio** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:11 am

To research mares for superior & inferior nicks, I would research all of Relaunch's mares & find which sire lines they were producing those superior runners from. Some of those mares would nick with the Hyperion branch of Gainsborough & Peter Pan branch of Domino. I would then look for a stallion that had crosses of Hyperion & Peter Pan, to breed too.

foothillsequine · Postby **foothillsequine** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:25 pm

Ok, you're hired!

Seriously though, I do appreciate all the input, thanks very much. I have heard both arguments, and still don't know where to place my money (so to speak). Do you breed where the numbers show very high to a relatively unknown sire, or take a chance on the conformation and race record of a well known sire that provides poor nicks when matched with your mare, that is where I am right now. I do not breed for the commercial market, but to race our own, and we only breed a couple per year (everyone needs and has a job on this farm), so my dilemma remains.

louis finochio · Postby **louis finochio** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:59 pm

If the nicks are very positive to an unproven stallion, check if the UPS comes from a family of sire of sires, if he dosent pass on him.
Better to breed to a proven stallion, that nicks with your mare.

foothillsequine · Postby **foothillsequine** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:31 pm

Good advice Louis, thanks.

kybred · Postby **kybred** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:57 pm

I bred a Storm Cat mare, that is new to me, based on the G1 Goldmine. It is considered an exceptional mating. The stallion owner contacted me about doing a foal share. I am inexperienced and figured it's as good a choice as any. The Storm Cat mare herself, ran twice and placed once. Certainly not a commercial mare. The resulting foal will be of interest. I will post when it arrives in May.