Is anyone a member of a public racing partnership (or been a member in the past.) If so, I have a couple of questions I hope people don't mind answering.
Firstly, do all owners need to be licensed? Is there a certain percentage of the horse that you must own in order for it to be a requirement that you have a license? Does it vary state to state, province to province? What if a partner was just a silent partner and agreed to no backstretch access or paddock access etc.
How do you know that the managers of the partnership are being honest? Are you able to see items such as bills and invoices, or do you kind of just need to trust them until they prove themselves to be untrustworthy?
We'll start with those two, but I'll have more later for sure.
Thanks to anyone who can answer these.
Racing Partnerships
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Agent Zero
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racing partnership
I do believe it varies by state. It may be as low as 3-5% ownership requires license regardless of silent or not.
The tough thing about partnerships is that unless you really know them you don't know if they are being honest. I would always say keep your eyes wide open and don't be afraid to ask questions. Managing partners do it to make money and/or to get racing action so you have to expect to pay something for that but I would ask the MP to see if they send you a financial summary every month.
You also have to figure out what are your goals. Is it just to say you own a horse and for entertainment or are you trying to make money. You can buy into a partnership for as little as $500.oo but you will have a lot of partners mostly for entertainment. I would not expect to have much say as a partner at this level. Once you start to get in to bigger $'s, I would make sure I knew how my money was being spent and what kind of say you have.
The tough thing about partnerships is that unless you really know them you don't know if they are being honest. I would always say keep your eyes wide open and don't be afraid to ask questions. Managing partners do it to make money and/or to get racing action so you have to expect to pay something for that but I would ask the MP to see if they send you a financial summary every month.
You also have to figure out what are your goals. Is it just to say you own a horse and for entertainment or are you trying to make money. You can buy into a partnership for as little as $500.oo but you will have a lot of partners mostly for entertainment. I would not expect to have much say as a partner at this level. Once you start to get in to bigger $'s, I would make sure I knew how my money was being spent and what kind of say you have.
Partners with any kind of stake (5%) need to be licensed in EACH STATE where the horse will race which is a giant PITA, not to mention expense for the partner. For example, you have a piece of a horse at Churchill, who will potentially race at Charlestown, Mountaineer, River Downs, Hoosier, or Indiana, as well as Churchill/Keeneland/Ellis and now you need licenses for VA, WV, OH, IN and KY. Gettin' up there to about $200 for just licenses. For each partner.
This is one major reason why you see a LOT of partnership outfits offering 4.75% of the horse.....
This is one major reason why you see a LOT of partnership outfits offering 4.75% of the horse.....
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
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karenkarenn
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I've never been in a partnership (and believe me sometimes when I look at the stack of bills every month I wish I was) but the big issue has to be the loss of control. One of the major thrills of owning a racehorse is in the management. The old cliche about owning your own sports franchise is really true. The horse goes out under your colors and carrying your name. You get to select the trainer, the circuit, the races. The condition book even at the lowest level starts to have meaning. I seldom bet but selecting races for your horse is some of the highest stakes wagering going on at the track because do it right and get lucky and you can be in the black for that month.
You're insulated somewhat in a partnership but you also probably won't have a lot of input either. To be successful (and by that I mean have a good time), you need to not care about that and enjoy some of the perks of ownership including rooting home "your" horse. It's not a bad way to get your feet wet as long as you understand the limitations.
You're insulated somewhat in a partnership but you also probably won't have a lot of input either. To be successful (and by that I mean have a good time), you need to not care about that and enjoy some of the perks of ownership including rooting home "your" horse. It's not a bad way to get your feet wet as long as you understand the limitations.
Sysonby wrote:I've never been in a partnership (and believe me sometimes when I look at the stack of bills every month I wish I was) but the big issue has to be the loss of control. One of the major thrills of owning a racehorse is in the management. The old cliche about owning your own sports franchise is really true. The horse goes out under your colors and carrying your name. You get to select the trainer, the circuit, the races. The condition book even at the lowest level starts to have meaning. I seldom bet but selecting races for your horse is some of the highest stakes wagering going on at the track because do it right and get lucky and you can be in the black for that month.
You're insulated somewhat in a partnership but you also probably won't have a lot of input either. To be successful (and by that I mean have a good time), you need to not care about that and enjoy some of the perks of ownership including rooting home "your" horse. It's not a bad way to get your feet wet as long as you understand the limitations.
Well-said, Sysonby.
I was part of a partnership at Woodbine.
The ORC website has all the info you need, but so as I recall:
Firstly, do all owners need to be licensed? Yes
"Owners
Any person owning all or part of a horse racing in Ontario must hold a valid ORC license. To apply for an owner licence, an applicant must have a horse of racing age in Ontario. Owners must declare their trainer on the application form."
Note that in general, buying 1% of a horse in order to get your foot in the
backstretch is not so easy. 5% should be good enough though. (Forgive this tangent, but one of the roadblocks to new owners is not knowing the trainers. You need a trainer to get a licence, you need a licence to get to the trainers. Significant barrier. Though, it is easily enough remedied with a few phone calls, if you are complete newbie with only cash and interest, the closed shop racing community is daunting. Once you're in however, you wonder why it looked so closed as it really isn't)
Is there a certain percentage of the horse that you must own in order for it to be a requirement that you have a license? No any % needs a licence. Being an owner it means you enter into the "race horse system" which has many legal and practical implications. If you are contributing money but not an owner you are in a grey area many would prefer you not be in. I think there is a minimum requirement in order to get your sticker for grounds admittance at Woodbine. (Different than an ORC licence)
If you are registering a partnership (different than a bunch of individual owners),
"Licensing a partnership
In addition to the partnership itself, any person holding or controlling five (5%) or more of the partnership, must be licensed as an owner."
So by this, if you have an actual registered partnership <5% bdoesn't need a licence (likely because all the other owners assume your liabilities)
Does it vary state to state, province to province? Yes.
What if a partner was just a silent partner and agreed to no backstretch access or paddock access etc.
If they are less than 5% likely OK but in reality they won't be a true owner, only a money contributor. Technically, even then they should be licenced . (unless it's an actual partnership per above) There are strict rules due to hidden ownership problems in the past. (banned owners and trainers trying to keep their fingers in the pie)
How do you know that the managers of the partnership are being honest?
This is a problem. Unless you are the managing partner you don't. If it's a very arms length and non-personal situation, you also run the risk of padded fees (even if only slightly)
As a licenced owner with backstretch access, you should be able to talk with the trainer, and if things are going badly the vet and anyone else. Owners rule the roost. Trainers administering partnerships are a problem. Partnerships who are in league with a trainer and keeping things less than clear are a problem. The partnership agreement should spell everything out and be blessed from the legal side. If you're doing this on a handshake, you're asking for trouble, especially if it's with people you don't know. The one I was in was great and above board. PM me if you want any info. In general good trainers are just trying to win races and aren't out to fleece you, but that said this is racing and to question every penny is nickel and diming and quite frankly, if you're worried about a few hundred bucks a month plus or minus, should you really be in this game? (Personally, I think yes every penny is important, but keep in mind that most trainers idea of a good owner is lots of dough, tips the help, buys good horses, doesn't visit, pays the bills and keep mouth shut)
Fractional ownership is almost diametrically opposite to this, so you need everyone on the same page to make it work. (trainer and partnership lead especially)
Are you able to see items such as bills and invoices, or do you kind of just need to trust them until they prove themselves to be untrustworthy?
You get the partnership you deserve. If you spell out you want a photo copy of every bill you should get it. But also don't be surprised if no one wants to do business with you, as there is a clear cut contingent on the track that's only after your money.
Trainers want to have their cake and eat it too. Here's a typical overheard comment: Two trainers yelling across the shedrow " Hey Johnny, who's the new guy? I like his Jaguar, must be loaded. Johnny's hit the big time! Look who's Mr Big trainer now! Can I walk hots for you when you move to Saratoga?"
Johnny looks sheepish. Johnny's swimming with sharks and some want to steal his owners.
Partnerships or trainers that are in the customer service business is what you want to start with. If you have no frame of reference many people on this board can likely give you a typical monthly bill (I can if you want). I'd say what I paid was average for Woodbine.
We'll start with those two, but I'll have more later for sure.
Go ahead, ask away.
The ORC website has all the info you need, but so as I recall:
Firstly, do all owners need to be licensed? Yes
"Owners
Any person owning all or part of a horse racing in Ontario must hold a valid ORC license. To apply for an owner licence, an applicant must have a horse of racing age in Ontario. Owners must declare their trainer on the application form."
Note that in general, buying 1% of a horse in order to get your foot in the
backstretch is not so easy. 5% should be good enough though. (Forgive this tangent, but one of the roadblocks to new owners is not knowing the trainers. You need a trainer to get a licence, you need a licence to get to the trainers. Significant barrier. Though, it is easily enough remedied with a few phone calls, if you are complete newbie with only cash and interest, the closed shop racing community is daunting. Once you're in however, you wonder why it looked so closed as it really isn't)
Is there a certain percentage of the horse that you must own in order for it to be a requirement that you have a license? No any % needs a licence. Being an owner it means you enter into the "race horse system" which has many legal and practical implications. If you are contributing money but not an owner you are in a grey area many would prefer you not be in. I think there is a minimum requirement in order to get your sticker for grounds admittance at Woodbine. (Different than an ORC licence)
If you are registering a partnership (different than a bunch of individual owners),
"Licensing a partnership
In addition to the partnership itself, any person holding or controlling five (5%) or more of the partnership, must be licensed as an owner."
So by this, if you have an actual registered partnership <5% bdoesn't need a licence (likely because all the other owners assume your liabilities)
Does it vary state to state, province to province? Yes.
What if a partner was just a silent partner and agreed to no backstretch access or paddock access etc.
If they are less than 5% likely OK but in reality they won't be a true owner, only a money contributor. Technically, even then they should be licenced . (unless it's an actual partnership per above) There are strict rules due to hidden ownership problems in the past. (banned owners and trainers trying to keep their fingers in the pie)
How do you know that the managers of the partnership are being honest?
This is a problem. Unless you are the managing partner you don't. If it's a very arms length and non-personal situation, you also run the risk of padded fees (even if only slightly)
As a licenced owner with backstretch access, you should be able to talk with the trainer, and if things are going badly the vet and anyone else. Owners rule the roost. Trainers administering partnerships are a problem. Partnerships who are in league with a trainer and keeping things less than clear are a problem. The partnership agreement should spell everything out and be blessed from the legal side. If you're doing this on a handshake, you're asking for trouble, especially if it's with people you don't know. The one I was in was great and above board. PM me if you want any info. In general good trainers are just trying to win races and aren't out to fleece you, but that said this is racing and to question every penny is nickel and diming and quite frankly, if you're worried about a few hundred bucks a month plus or minus, should you really be in this game? (Personally, I think yes every penny is important, but keep in mind that most trainers idea of a good owner is lots of dough, tips the help, buys good horses, doesn't visit, pays the bills and keep mouth shut)
Fractional ownership is almost diametrically opposite to this, so you need everyone on the same page to make it work. (trainer and partnership lead especially)
Are you able to see items such as bills and invoices, or do you kind of just need to trust them until they prove themselves to be untrustworthy?
You get the partnership you deserve. If you spell out you want a photo copy of every bill you should get it. But also don't be surprised if no one wants to do business with you, as there is a clear cut contingent on the track that's only after your money.
Trainers want to have their cake and eat it too. Here's a typical overheard comment: Two trainers yelling across the shedrow " Hey Johnny, who's the new guy? I like his Jaguar, must be loaded. Johnny's hit the big time! Look who's Mr Big trainer now! Can I walk hots for you when you move to Saratoga?"
Johnny looks sheepish. Johnny's swimming with sharks and some want to steal his owners.
Partnerships or trainers that are in the customer service business is what you want to start with. If you have no frame of reference many people on this board can likely give you a typical monthly bill (I can if you want). I'd say what I paid was average for Woodbine.
We'll start with those two, but I'll have more later for sure.
Go ahead, ask away.
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Agent Zero
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Thank you to everyone for all your help.
I have a question that I want to pose, and this question is more geared towards people don't really own, but want to get into ownership at a much smaller level. Also, I realize this board is filled mostly with horsemen so there's a good chance this question will not apply to anyone on the board.
I've done a lot of research on partnerships, and I see that a lot offer 5 or 10% shares. Some even offer smaller shares such as 2.5%. My question is this:
Rather than spending hundreds/thousands on one horse, would you spend around the same amount, but for much smaller shares in multiple horses spread throughout the country? I mean something such as $20 for a share that can be as low as 1/100 of a percent.
I have a question that I want to pose, and this question is more geared towards people don't really own, but want to get into ownership at a much smaller level. Also, I realize this board is filled mostly with horsemen so there's a good chance this question will not apply to anyone on the board.
I've done a lot of research on partnerships, and I see that a lot offer 5 or 10% shares. Some even offer smaller shares such as 2.5%. My question is this:
Rather than spending hundreds/thousands on one horse, would you spend around the same amount, but for much smaller shares in multiple horses spread throughout the country? I mean something such as $20 for a share that can be as low as 1/100 of a percent.
Agent Zero wrote:Thank you to everyone for all your help.
I have a question that I want to pose, and this question is more geared towards people don't really own, but want to get into ownership at a much smaller level. Also, I realize this board is filled mostly with horsemen so there's a good chance this question will not apply to anyone on the board.
I've done a lot of research on partnerships, and I see that a lot offer 5 or 10% shares. Some even offer smaller shares such as 2.5%. My question is this:
Rather than spending hundreds/thousands on one horse, would you spend around the same amount, but for much smaller shares in multiple horses spread throughout the country? I mean something such as $20 for a share that can be as low as 1/100 of a percent.
First, it depends on what you want to get out of the partnership. If you are looking for entertainment & the ability to say, "I own a piece of that horse!" those tiny partnerships might be satisfying. They appeal to people who want to throw a party for their friends & watch their horse race on TV.
Years ago I looked into one. It is my experience that they are not very welcoming to owners, even though the websites often say the owner can come see the horse any time. I live +/- an hour from Charles Town & spoke with a trainer there who had a website & one of those inexpensive partnerships. He frankly sounded aghast at my proximity to him & the fact I might actually take him up on the 'you can come to the track any time' offer. He said he liked owners in California (who threw a party in their living room to watch 'their' horse race.)
About that same time, I also put a few of the trainers of those outfits in my virtual stable, and you will be throwing fewer parties than you think - I didn't see many entries. I DID see some of the partnership horses listed on the CANTER horse placement sites.
If your goal is to learn something about the sport of racing & you live near a track, I would investigate the local trainers, find one you like who you think will work with you & see about a partnership there. You will get to see the horse and hopefully, learn something about whether you want to get involved deeper in racing as an owner.
And if you are thinking about racing as a business model for making money . . . you might want to re-think your investment strategy entirely!
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karenkarenn
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