Dr. Nunamaker of New Bolton has studied training methods and their role in developing bone density. He suggests that young horses in training be breezed 1/8 at a 13 second clip twice per week once their training advances to a point where they can gallop a mile. This information has been out for many years in fact as reported for horses in training at Fair Hill.
I am looking for a trainer in the mid-west who is aware of this "technology" and practices it in their training of young horses. Do any of the forum members know of trainers that do this and can recommend one?
David Nunamaker Bone Study
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louis finochio
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It is well documented that breeding, inbreeding included, has very little to do with bone density. Once the foal is born it is at the mercy of humans as to bone density, unless of course there is some type of disease involved.
The dynamics of racing contributes more to the number of starts than any other aspect, including breeding and inbreeding, and, since 1984 the Breeders Cup races in particular have had a great effect as to number of starts, why run your horse into the ground during the racing year when the chance for big money comes at the end of the year?
DDT
The dynamics of racing contributes more to the number of starts than any other aspect, including breeding and inbreeding, and, since 1984 the Breeders Cup races in particular have had a great effect as to number of starts, why run your horse into the ground during the racing year when the chance for big money comes at the end of the year?
DDT
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Shammy Davis
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
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- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:23 am
Louis: You make yourself look foolish and ignorant when you make comments like the "inbreeding" one posted above. That conformation is inheritable and bone is modeled has been a long held fact. DDT is right about the influences of the environment that young TB finds itself in. It is no different for the human child. You need to update your education on this subject. Here is a simple explanation from Wikipedia:
Bone remodeling (or bone metabolism) is a lifelong process where mature bone tissue is removed from the skeleton (a process called bone resorption) and new bone tissue is formed (a process called ossification or new bone formation). These processes also control the reshaping or replacement of bone following injuries like fractures but also micro-damage, which occurs during normal activity. Remodeling responds also to functional demands of the mechanical loading.
In the first year of life, almost 100% of the skeleton is replaced. In adults, remodeling proceeds at about 10% per year.[1]
An imbalance in the regulation of bone remodeling's two sub-processes, bone resorption and bone formation, results in many metabolic bone diseases, such as osteoporosis.[2]
[edit] PhysiologyThe cells responsible for bone metabolism are known as osteoblasts, which secrete new bone, and osteoclasts which break bone down. The structure of bones as well as adequate supply of calcium requires close cooperation between these two types of cells. It relies on complex signaling pathways to achieve proper rates of growth and differentiation. These signaling pathways include the action of several hormones, including parathyroid hormone (PTH), vitamin D, growth hormone, steroids, and calcitonin, as well as several cytokines. It is in this way that the body is able to maintain proper levels of calcium required for physiological processes.
Subsequent to appropriate signaling, osteoclasts move to resorb the surface of the bone, followed by deposition of bone by osteoblasts. Together, the cells that are responsible for bone remodeling are known as the basic multicellular unit (BMU), and the temporal duration (i.e. lifespan) of the BMU is referred to as the bone remodeling period.[3]
Here is an easy to understand link (supporting the initial post) that makes sense of the bone modeling subject without going to much into scientific detail.
http://www.horsesabetterway.com/files/b ... ercise.pdf
Bone remodeling (or bone metabolism) is a lifelong process where mature bone tissue is removed from the skeleton (a process called bone resorption) and new bone tissue is formed (a process called ossification or new bone formation). These processes also control the reshaping or replacement of bone following injuries like fractures but also micro-damage, which occurs during normal activity. Remodeling responds also to functional demands of the mechanical loading.
In the first year of life, almost 100% of the skeleton is replaced. In adults, remodeling proceeds at about 10% per year.[1]
An imbalance in the regulation of bone remodeling's two sub-processes, bone resorption and bone formation, results in many metabolic bone diseases, such as osteoporosis.[2]
[edit] PhysiologyThe cells responsible for bone metabolism are known as osteoblasts, which secrete new bone, and osteoclasts which break bone down. The structure of bones as well as adequate supply of calcium requires close cooperation between these two types of cells. It relies on complex signaling pathways to achieve proper rates of growth and differentiation. These signaling pathways include the action of several hormones, including parathyroid hormone (PTH), vitamin D, growth hormone, steroids, and calcitonin, as well as several cytokines. It is in this way that the body is able to maintain proper levels of calcium required for physiological processes.
Subsequent to appropriate signaling, osteoclasts move to resorb the surface of the bone, followed by deposition of bone by osteoblasts. Together, the cells that are responsible for bone remodeling are known as the basic multicellular unit (BMU), and the temporal duration (i.e. lifespan) of the BMU is referred to as the bone remodeling period.[3]
Here is an easy to understand link (supporting the initial post) that makes sense of the bone modeling subject without going to much into scientific detail.
http://www.horsesabetterway.com/files/b ... ercise.pdf
Last edited by Shammy Davis on Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
On the other hand I have been warned against in-breeding, or line breeding, too close to Mr Prospector by people I know and respect.
Thought I could get away with it with a Cryptoclearance daughter bred to a Forty Niner son but the knees of the resulting filly are bad, really bad.
That mare is a 3S X 4D to Mr Prospector and there may have been other factors involved but that 3S X 4D to Mr P is one of my prime suspects.
On the other hand I like what this 3S X 4D produces when I breed her to unrelated stallions.
griff
Thought I could get away with it with a Cryptoclearance daughter bred to a Forty Niner son but the knees of the resulting filly are bad, really bad.
That mare is a 3S X 4D to Mr Prospector and there may have been other factors involved but that 3S X 4D to Mr P is one of my prime suspects.
On the other hand I like what this 3S X 4D produces when I breed her to unrelated stallions.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
The point is that speed training done correctly remodels bone in the young trainee. I never hear any trainers talk / advertize this. I have a filly that bucked her shins in her first race and want to avoid this in the future if at all possible. It is expensive to have them in rehab, not furthering their training, not racing. Going back to my original question, anyone konw of a trainer that starts young horses (prefer the mid-west) that understands about these studies and incorporates these suggestions into their program?
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Shammy Davis
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Griff: Did you see this 2010 report?
http://www.margauxfarm.com/wp-content/u ... 2_2011.pdf
If ever there was a report that debunks Louis and his "doomed TB" theory, this is it. Do your own research and trace the pedigrees in this link back and you see that there is substantial evidence why MR PROSPECTOR was a prolific and prepotent producer of high quality durable racehorses. Go to page 695 or around their on the "inbreeding and unsoundness" thread and read the contradictory posts. Both DDT and BAST, among other make intelligent comments.
Louis's theory is gibberish. We all know that conformation is inheritable, but it doesn't necessarily mean that a foal will be unsound because its sire was retired unsound and ill-formed conformation is not the only cause for injury and long term unsoundness. Louis bases his theory that genetics is the sole source of unsoundness. Not true. The vast majority of unsoundness issues are environmentally connected. Dr. Nunamaker and other researchers debunked what Louis is saying years ago. Look at the dates on the research. Check the date on the Grayson JC newletter on the subject. It was published a year (2003) before Louis started his doomed TB thread. The Grayson JC is one of the foremost organizations conducting and supporting equine research and Louis has neither read Nunamakers' research or the Grayson newletter that summarizes the issues and clearly doesn't understand the science or research surrounding the subject.
You'd be better off asking a "bucket of sand" what it thinks about a particular breeding than asking Louis.
http://www.margauxfarm.com/wp-content/u ... 2_2011.pdf
If ever there was a report that debunks Louis and his "doomed TB" theory, this is it. Do your own research and trace the pedigrees in this link back and you see that there is substantial evidence why MR PROSPECTOR was a prolific and prepotent producer of high quality durable racehorses. Go to page 695 or around their on the "inbreeding and unsoundness" thread and read the contradictory posts. Both DDT and BAST, among other make intelligent comments.
Louis's theory is gibberish. We all know that conformation is inheritable, but it doesn't necessarily mean that a foal will be unsound because its sire was retired unsound and ill-formed conformation is not the only cause for injury and long term unsoundness. Louis bases his theory that genetics is the sole source of unsoundness. Not true. The vast majority of unsoundness issues are environmentally connected. Dr. Nunamaker and other researchers debunked what Louis is saying years ago. Look at the dates on the research. Check the date on the Grayson JC newletter on the subject. It was published a year (2003) before Louis started his doomed TB thread. The Grayson JC is one of the foremost organizations conducting and supporting equine research and Louis has neither read Nunamakers' research or the Grayson newletter that summarizes the issues and clearly doesn't understand the science or research surrounding the subject.
You'd be better off asking a "bucket of sand" what it thinks about a particular breeding than asking Louis.
aurora wrote:The point is that speed training done correctly remodels bone in the young trainee. I never hear any trainers talk / advertize this. I have a filly that bucked her shins in her first race and want to avoid this in the future if at all possible. It is expensive to have them in rehab, not furthering their training, not racing. Going back to my original question, anyone konw of a trainer that starts young horses (prefer the mid-west) that understands about these studies and incorporates these suggestions into their program?
I sent you a PM.
louis finochio wrote:Strength of bone begins when you plan a mating. If you carry inbreeding to far, you will breed tons of unsound tbs. That'[s why the average lifetime starts has went into a steep decline in the last 30 years.
Flaming baloney with garlic, Louis.
Did you read any of the links or even the posts put up in response to your comment?
May 2013: Plan ahead now for the Phalaris/Teddy Centennial!
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A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
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A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
griff
At no time, on this thread or any other thread have I said anything about breeding, inbreeding or line breeding that goes to conformation. It is a well known fact that breeding mares with faulty racing conformation is risky, as is using a stallion that has sired many foals with conformation defects that make it difficult or impossible for racing. In my opinion, inbreeding can be a major cause of this, depending upon how close the inbreeding is. What I have said and continue to believe is that inbreeding to one sire line has nothing to do with bone density.
DDT
At no time, on this thread or any other thread have I said anything about breeding, inbreeding or line breeding that goes to conformation. It is a well known fact that breeding mares with faulty racing conformation is risky, as is using a stallion that has sired many foals with conformation defects that make it difficult or impossible for racing. In my opinion, inbreeding can be a major cause of this, depending upon how close the inbreeding is. What I have said and continue to believe is that inbreeding to one sire line has nothing to do with bone density.
DDT
Thanks Shammy
I had no idea there were stallions out there posting those kind of stats.
Must admit this is the first time I've been on that site and was pleasantly surprised with what I saw and read
thanks again.
Still don't think line-breeding or in-breeding to Mr P up close is a good idea even if one of the lines is through Cryptocleance. However, do think that every horse needs a line to him and as close as possible. Also like mr P with Northern Dancer; i.e., like Not For Love very much for mares with no Mr P.
griff
I had no idea there were stallions out there posting those kind of stats.
Must admit this is the first time I've been on that site and was pleasantly surprised with what I saw and read
thanks again.
Still don't think line-breeding or in-breeding to Mr P up close is a good idea even if one of the lines is through Cryptocleance. However, do think that every horse needs a line to him and as close as possible. Also like mr P with Northern Dancer; i.e., like Not For Love very much for mares with no Mr P.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]