looking for Sire lines

[Gunter Prischl]

First of all I would like to thank the creators of this website for doing such an excellent job. Whenever I find a well-bred sire, which does not yet appear in your data bank - I add him to it.
As I have studied TB genetics since 1986, I have matched mares to suitable stallions for the last few years and managed to create the odd Million$ winner.

What I would like to find out is whether anyone knows of the existence of current sires which go back in tail-male line to Discovery, Carbine and The Tetrarch - all these lines are important to give toughness and stamina to progeny.

If anyone could help, it would be much appreciated.

I can be contacted on [email protected] - this includes matches for interested parties.

[yukidragon]

hi, Discovery is the Hastings male tail line the same as Man O War.
War Relic,Intent,Internationally,In Reality,Believe it etc... are from Hastings line.

[henthorn]

Welcome to the forum, Gunter.

Sorry, Yuki, no cigar. Discovery is the broodmare sire of In Reality, and both Discovery and War Relic are grandsons of Fair Play, son of Hastings. Discovery and War Relic are the two grandsires of In Reality.

So, Gunter, In Reality concentrates Fair Play 4 x 4, and there are a fair number of stallions from the In Reality line in the US. I'm not aware of any significant stallions in the US who trace tail male to any of your three mentioned stallions.

[louis finochio]

In 1973 when I started researching TB Nicking Patterns, their was no computer. I researched for 5 years before I completed my research.

Today we have this computer that will give you the info that you want to know at your finger tips.

Their are many services that offer the info that you inquire about.
Are forum members use these services for research. I dont use them because I have my own notes and books of reference.

One of our forum members will help you find the info, as this is the power of the net.

[Bill from WA]

Hi and welcome.

The Discovery sireline is dead as far as I have been able to determine. The last sire tracing tail male to him that I have been able to find is Eggs Dynamite (1977). A Discovery son, Whistling Wind (1943) was sent to New Zealand in 1949, and his son, Gale Force (NZ) (1951) stood in that country. Most of Discovery's best running sons were geldings, including his best winner by far, Find.
I'll get back to you on the other two.

Bill

[Linda in TX]

hi, Discovery is the Hastings male tail line the same as Man O War. War Relic,Intent,Internationally,In Reality,Believe it etc... are from Hastings line.

Sorry, Yuki, no cigar.

Henthorn...

Yuki got it right. Discovery (by Display by Fair Play by Hastings) is from the same tail-male descent as War Relic (by Man o' War by Fair Play by Hastings). Fair Play tail-male through In Reality, however, is probably the last of the line.

[henthorn]

I stand corrected. War Relic and Discovery are both tail male to Hastings thru Fair Play, as Yuki stated. But the question was, are there any Discovery line stallions available? The answer is no, as In Reality is tail male to War Relic, and broodmare sire is Discovery. We each had it partially right and wrong. However, for purposes of returning soundness to the breed, In Reality combines strengths of the Hastings line on both top and bottom, and might fill the bill for Australia and New Zealand.

It seems Carbine's descendants beyond Chicle that still appear in pedigrees are female, such as Catnip, Spearmint, Plucky Liege.

[jellac]

With regard to Gunter's search for tail male descendants of The Tetrarch:

My very quick search - entirely from this database's listing of entire sons of The Tetrarch - would suggest that IF there are any tail male descendants of The Tetrarch at stud anywherein the world.....a real longshot.....your best bet may be to make contact with the Jockey Clubs and/or pedigree experts of India, South Africa/Kenya and South America.

It is with respect to those countries where I see some of his tail male descendants listed as having being successful at stud but at best only daughters are listed as Progeny by this database....doesn't mean there were no sons that bred on....just that their offspring haven't shown up in the bloodlines of stock that made it back to race in N.America/Australiz-NZ or Europe' graded races. Several of his male descendants were noted as leading sires in Kenya or South Africa.....yet not a single descendant appears in this database, so clearly there are gaps in this volunteer database when it comes to the 'offspring of a Leading Sire from Kenya, South Africa, India, and oftentimes when from Brazil, Argentina, etc. The same is true for some of his grandget that apparently were "Classic Sires" in Argentina or Brazil. No offspring listed at all or only a handful of daughters in the database.

I also saw where a stallion names "Smith" was shipped to the West Indies for stud duty but again no offspring reported....so another remote corner of the racing/thoroughbred breeding world where an intact tail male of The Tetrarch might linger still.

You might also check to see if you can find out if any sons of the Juggler were bred on in Australia as sirelines for hunters/jumping/other equestrian sporting pursuits like polo. He doesn't seem to have any breeding on for racing purposes but I did see where one of his daughters and her descendants are listed here for several generations...so the blood was apparently valued by breeders.....at least for a while....in your corner of the world....if only on the female side of the pedigree.

[louis finochio]

The Tetrarch gr. 1911---Lady Josephine ch 1912, produced Mumtaz Mahal gr. 1921, Gainsborough b. 1915---Mumtaz Mahal, produced Mah Mahal gr. 1928. Blenheim II br. 1927---Mah Mahal produced Mahmoud gr. 1933,

Mahmoud---Ampola produced Polamia gr. 1955, Herbager b. 1956---Polamia produced Grey Dawn II gr. 1962.

Grey Dawn II---Agathea b. 1955 produced Agatheas Dawn gr. 1970.

Al Hattab gr. 1966---AgatheasDawn produced Sharon Brown gr. 1980.

Great Above br. 1972---Sharon Brown produced Holy Bull gr. 1991.

Holy Bull---Set them Free b. 1990 produced Giacomo gr. 2002 winner of the 131st KY. Derby.

[jellac]

THE TETRARCH produced:

SALMON-TROUT who in turn produced, among his sons KING SALMON who went on to be important in S American breeding history -

KING SALMON 1930 who was an important sire of racehorses and to lesser extent sires of racehorses in Brazil/S. America. His sire sons:

1) Royal Chaplain '37 - sire of SW and sire in S Africa: Cosmopolitan

2) Jamaica Inn '37 - Sire of: Albany '46 an intact male but no record of offspring??

3) King's Abbey '39 - Sire of the following intact males some of whom went on to produce entire male offspring as noted:
Battling Abbey - sire of: Battle Khal & Endura - (no record of their having produce)
Golden Abbey,
Gifted(USA) - sire of Toronado (VEN) possible sire?,
Fleet Abbey - sire of Fleet Jet (no record of being bred on)
John Abbey
Honest Abbey
King Tomias - produced winner Spud Patch
King Terex
Sandy's Dream - sire of Quesnel - no record for Quesnel
Swift Abbey
Swirling Abbey - decent racehorse but no record of being bred on
Valley Abbey - sire of Promised Valley


4) Treble Crown '41 (Inbred 3 x 4 to The Tetrarch) - Sire of LIBERTY(CHI) listed as a sire but no records found & of SMOKING, who raced in the US successfully but has no record of offspring;

5) Kingstone '42 - (out of Feola, the very influential daughter of Friar Marcus) - did not find any record of his having produced any offsrpoing of note.

6) Manguari '45 - sire of "Classic Sire" INTERLAGOS '60 for whom I find no sons listed here

7) Quasi '49 - sire of: Astrobrande (sp?) - no record of his being bred on

PROSPER '48 - Sire of the following sire-sons:
VANDALO '54
NICHO '69
DUBROVNICK '67

9) UBI - 53

10) ULTRA '53

[jellac]

I didn't intentionally format my previous response to have the # 8 stallion in the list be the now "smiled upon" PROSPER....but it would seem that the best chances of there being an intact male descendant of The Tetrarch today would come from his sons....but the records at this site go no further than what I have shown above.

[Gunter Prischl]

I would like to thank all those people who have replied to my original query.

Here are the latest sires I could find (all of which I have posted on this site):

Discovery line: Thunderstruck ch h 1953 CA

Carbine lines: Ken's Chicle b h 1954 BC (CAN); Power Tip ch h 1960 BC;

The Tetrarch lines: Soudard b h 1968 KY; Jet Stream br h 1957 AL; Easel's Pride b h 1964 BC (CAN); King Shebali b h 1963 OR;

If anybody knows of any sires going back to these sires, please let me know - I would greatly appreciate this.

Gunter

[Bill from WA]

Did you look up Eggs Dynamite (1977)? I believe he sired a few. His sire, Magic Egg (1964), also sired some runners. Both are later versions than Thunderstruck.

Bill

[Gunter Prischl]

Thanks Bill from WA for the tip on Eggs Dynamite. Whilst I could not find any progeny of his, the horse itself seems to be rather well bred.

If there were a sire son of his out of a St Simon line dam (Ribot, Round Table, etc) and a Man O' War or Hurry On line at the bottom - the line would be sure to continue because of very good performance on the track.

I'll be checking these lines as far as I can follow them.

Thanks again Bill

Gunter