NON-PHALARIS SIRE LINES VANISHING

[louis finochio]

As the years go by the non-(Phalaris) sire lines on the BMS side are becoming scarce. The following stats will reveal that the non-(Phalaris) BMS are a vanishing breed.

Elusive Quality 4 crops racing age 224 foals

(Phalaris)
BMS 204

Non- (Phalaris) BMS

Rabelais 8

Prince Rose 4

Teddy 2

Questionnaire 2

Dark Ronald 1

Gainsborough 2

Fair Play 1

Successful Appeal 2 Crops Racing Age 79 Foals

(Phalaris)
BMS 68

Non-(Phalaris) BMS

Teddy 3

Gainsborough 2

Rabelais 1

Fair Play 3

Prince Rose 1

Dark Ronald 1

When 95 % of the mares that are bred to the above stallions are from the (Phalaris) sire line, they are adding to the 8 crosses or more of the stallions (Phalaris) sire line.

The result from this is the same gene pool of ancestors that is watering down are breed of TB on the sire and dam side of their offspring.

[Sam]

Yes, Louis .. and the same thing happened decades ago with Matchem, Herod, Man O War etc etc. Darwin in action and only the best survive.

[louis finochio]

To Sam: If you were a breeder and were seeking an outcross for the (Phalaris) sire line what sire line would you use as an outcross?

[Sam]

To Sam: If you were a breeder and were seeking an outcross for the (Phalaris) sire line what sire line would you use as an outcross?

I wouldn't.

I don't think it's the issue you are trying to make it out to be. It's a natural evolutionary step in the development of the Modern Thoroughbred. Lines disappear. It happens. Bold Ruler has been hanging on by a thread since the mid 70s. Same for Man O'War.

As I've said repeatedly, I don't blame a horse's soundness issues on a horse in his 6th gen ... I blame it on the unsound crap sire and lowly cheap mare in his 1st generation. Breed trash to trash and you are going to get trash.

100+ years ago, I'm sure there were people bemoaning the loss of some of the other foundation lines when the TB narrowed down to just "The Big Three" ... and 50 years from now, I'm sure there will be people pissing and moaning about Northern Dancer showing up 8 times in a horse's 6th generation.

It happens. The dominate sires remain and the chaff disappears.

[BJ]

Louis,

Do you attribute Smarty Jones record of 9 8-1-0 to the fact that he had 18 crosses to Phalaris 8 & 9 generations back, or the fact that he ran 7 times in 6 months, with 5 of those starts being in Graded company?

Horses are all individuals. I'd look to the training methods, the trainers, the track surfaces, the level of competition, the time between tough races, and the medications used to keep a horse going, BEFORE I'd go looking for how many crosses to Phalaris a horse that breaks down or retires early has.

How do you explain Siberian Summer, who has 10 crosses to Phalaris (PHALARIS 8S x 8S x 7S x 7S x 9S x 6D x 8D x 8D x 8D x 7D 10 4 (4) (0) 6.05% 5x6 6.05%* )? He not only had 32 Starts, he throws foals that have durability too.

[siegy]

Louis,

Do you attribute Smarty Jones record of 9 8-1-0 to the fact that he had 18 crosses to Phalaris 8 & 9 generations back, or the fact that he ran 7 times in 6 months, with 5 of those starts being in Graded company?

Horses are all individuals. I'd look to the training methods, the trainers, the track surfaces, the level of competition, the time between tough races, and the medications used to keep a horse going, BEFORE I'd go looking for how many crosses to Phalaris a horse that breaks down or retires early has.

How do you explain Siberian Summer, who has 10 crosses to Phalaris (PHALARIS 8S x 8S x 7S x 7S x 9S x 6D x 8D x 8D x 8D x 7D 10 4 (4) (0) 6.05% 5x6 6.05%* )? He not only had 32 Starts, he throws foals that have durability too.

hi bj,

his di=2.50 cd= 0.62
-60% for the di and
62% for the cd a beautiful balnce,
also what is more important is the absolute none existing of fam 1,

Regard's Siegy,



5

[louis finochio]

Soundness is the name of the game, whether you use line-breeding or an outcross to obtain the desired results is what us breeders are trying to do.

Smarty Jones was used up by running to many Derby preps before the TC series. If SJ had fewer crosses of (Phalaris) he would have lasted longer.

Those buyers that are purchasing TB at the sales dont know a line-bred TB from an outcross TB. If they did they wouldnt buy a TB with 9-12 crosses of the same sire line that has a lifetime average starts of 8-9, as they are throwing good money after bad.

[Mahubah]

Actually, just because a sire line vanishes doesn't mean that a progenitor ceases to have influence. Look at the Herod male line -- hanging on by the slimmest of threads, yet Herod is generally accounted the single largest genetic influence in the breed. Why? Daughters, of course, and those of his sons and grandsons. He hasn't been "weeded out" by any selection process at all, unless of course you discount inheritance through females; it's only the straight male-line descent that's all but gone.

[BJ]

Soundness is the name of the game, whether you use line-breeding or an outcross to obtain the desired results is what us breeders are trying to do.

Smarty Jones was used up by running to many Derby preps before the TC series. If SJ had fewer crosses of (Phalaris) he would have lasted longer.

Those buyers that are purchasing TB at the sales dont know a line-bred TB from an outcross TB. If they did they wouldnt buy a TB with 9-12 crosses of the same sire line that has a lifetime average starts of 8-9, as they are throwing good money after bad.

Reviewer = 1 cross to Phalaris. (5s) Was he sound?
Shenanigans= 1 cross to Phalaris. (5s) Was she sound?

They produced Ruffian, a freak who had only 2 crosses to Phalaris (in 6th generation - 6s x 6s) 11 starts 10-0-0 (broke down). Word was that she was never sound. Was it Phalaris that killed her? Or was it greed and ego=stupidity?

[Sam]

Smarty Jones was used up by running to many Derby preps before the TC series. If SJ had fewer crosses of (Phalaris) he would have lasted longer.

I'm sorry but that is pure bullshit. He had no more or few starts before his Derby than most other horses in this era. He didn't run past the Belmont because they'd rather cash in on his stud fee than give him the 5 months needed to bring him back as a 4yo.

Phalaris had F-all to do with his not returning to the races. He was SOUND, but sore and needed time off ... AS DO MOST HORSES at some point.

[Pete]

Hi Louis,

You make a hypothesis and never back it with pertinent facts.

BJ couldn't have given a better illustration to dismiss your argument.

No horse has been inbred to Phalaris for decades. To indict all of his descendants to support your ill formed theory is ridiculous. If you've been studying pedigrees for 50 years you're not making an impressive case for your erudition.

You threw out the idea of how much more sound the breed would be if Teddy were used in pace of Phalaris. Obviously you are overlooking the fact that they are BOTH Bend Or line sires. Where do we place the blame then? Cyllene?

I don't mean to be insulting, but with the slanted facts (using 3rd and 4th year stallions to support your unsoundness theory) and nothing more than a general dislike for the Phalaris line as the basis for that theory you aren't impressing anyone as a student of pedigree.

Regards,

PEte

[Pan Zareta]

Reviewer = 1 cross to Phalaris. (5s) Was he sound?

That horse should never have been used for breeding. His damline is not exactly noted for strong bone. Only thirteen starts in 3 yrs. Broke his r. rear cannon at 2 and again at 3 & was brought back. Broke it at 4 & was mercifully (at least for the horse, if not the gene pool) retired.

Shenanigans= 1 cross to Phalaris. (5s) Was she sound?

No, but she crossed soundly w/ Nearctic, & Damascus & (arguably) w/ Buckpasser. In 20/20 hindsight, she should not have been bred to Bold Ruler & sons. But that was 'all in the family'.

[Pan Zareta]

Actually, just because a sire line vanishes doesn't mean that a progenitor ceases to have influence. Look at the Herod male line -- hanging on by the slimmest of threads, yet Herod is generally accounted the single largest genetic influence in the breed. Why? Daughters, of course, and those of his sons and grandsons. He hasn't been "weeded out" by any selection process at all, unless of course you discount inheritance through females; it's only the straight male-line descent that's all but gone.

Phalaris himself is a powerful source of Herod - check the four major influences on his pedigree. The only thing about that is that as we increase the number of crosses of Phalaris in a pedigree, we also increasingly restrict Herod's influence to only those of his genes which passed through Phalaris.

fwiw, I think the breed would be better off w/out the overbreeding to Phalaris - but not just b/c it's Phalaris. Overbreeding to any one individual eventually diminishes the vigor of any species.

just my $.02

[siegy]

[quote="Pete"]Hi Louis,

You make a hypothesis and never back it with pertinent facts.

BJ couldn't have given a better illustration to dismiss your argument.

No horse has been inbred to Phalaris for decades. To indict all of his descendants to support your ill formed theory is ridiculous. If you've been studying pedigrees for 50 years you're not making an impressive case for your erudition.

You threw out the idea of how much more sound the breed would be if Teddy were used in pace of Phalaris. Obviously you are overlooking the fact that they are BOTH Bend Or line sires. Where do we place the blame then? Cyllene?

I don't mean to be insulting, but with the slanted facts (using 3rd and 4th year stallions to support your unsoundness theory) and nothing more than a general dislike for the Phalaris line as the basis for that theory you aren't impressing anyone as a student of pedigree.

Regards,

PEte[/quote
hi pete,

some fact, also may be on shaky grounds, you guy;s have better record's.

herod to phalaris

increase of di = 5%
decrease in cd=47% this from 1758 - to 1913

Regard's Siegy,

[Pete]

Hi Siegy,

The point was simple, BJ gave a high profile example that contradicts Louis' hypothesis. It is an excellent factual example, even if only a single example. BJ didn't represent it as being encompassing.

As for your cryptic note about dosage changes since 1758, I'm wondering your source since aptitudinal groups have not assigned for sires before 1900 and thus it's impossible to create dosage figures for the dates you mention. Care to explain?

Pete