1. If AI was allowed, what would happen to Kentucky?
2. Also If AI was allowed, would that open the door to multiple embryo transfers and cloning?
AI, What would happen...
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TBLADY
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Kentucky? Ha ! Try NY, Md, Pa, Fla, Tx. Cal and anyother state with a state stallion and breeding program. Good bye the the broodmare farms who house so many mares to help fulfill state residency obligations though boarding and foaling. Fewer jobs for reporduciton vets No need for so many shippers and hauls.
I know thats just a scratch of the surface.
I must ask...what do you think you will gain the JC allowing AI?
I know thats just a scratch of the surface.
I must ask...what do you think you will gain the JC allowing AI?
Fins to the Left....
[quote="TBLADY"]Kentucky? Ha ! Try NY, Md, Pa, Fla, Tx. Cal and anyother state with a state stallion and breeding program. Good bye the the broodmare farms who house so many mares to help fulfill state residency obligations though boarding and foaling. Fewer jobs for reporduciton vets No need for so many shippers and hauls.
I know thats just a scratch of the surface.
I must ask...what do you think you will gain the JC allowing AI?[/quote]
So where would these mares go, Mars? How would AI change residency requirements for these states? And how is it fewer jobs for repro vets? Theres still just as many mares to do repro work on. Theres no lesser mares being bred.
Some of these arguments kill me.
I know thats just a scratch of the surface.
I must ask...what do you think you will gain the JC allowing AI?[/quote]
So where would these mares go, Mars? How would AI change residency requirements for these states? And how is it fewer jobs for repro vets? Theres still just as many mares to do repro work on. Theres no lesser mares being bred.
Some of these arguments kill me.
TBLADY wrote:Kentucky? Ha ! Try NY, Md, Pa, Fla, Tx. Cal and anyother state with a state stallion and breeding program. Good bye the the broodmare farms who house so many mares to help fulfill state residency obligations though boarding and foaling. Fewer jobs for reporduciton vets No need for so many shippers and hauls.
I know thats just a scratch of the surface.
I must ask...what do you think you will gain the JC allowing AI?
QH racing has been doing it for decades and is still around.
If you want your mare/foal to get sick and even die in some instances, ship them off to farms in KY/NY/Cal. etc. Exposure to 100s of horses from all around the country coming together in close quarters doesn't always end well... especially with a pedigree breed such as the thoroughbred involved. Cold bloods are not near as susceptible to the various diseases etc.
halo wrote:Some of these arguments kill me.
No kidding. More like irrational, ill-informed and down-right chicken little stupidity.
There would STILL be a residency requirement so that blew her "bye bye boarding farms" bs out of the water.
What would happen is that regional breeders would have a better selection of stallions to choose from at a little higher stud fee since they would no longer have to budget for transportation to and from the farm.
A mare owner could choose THE BEST STALLION FOR THE MARE instead of the best stallion that he could get to based on geographical/financial restrictions.
IT WOULD DRIVE MOST OF THE CHEAP ASS $500 STALLIONS OUT
, which is a GOOD thing as far as I'm concerned. If you can't justify a $1,500 stud fee -- for the mare or the stallion-- you shouldn't be breeding that horse. There are enough well-bred horses who can be bought for a couple grand and can't run a lick, why the hell do people insist on breeding trash, bottom feeding claimers who went 0 for 25 in her career to a worthless stallion who went 2 for 30 in his? There's being a dreamer and then there is being delusional.
It would have little impact on the high end, 100k-500k stallions -- how many mares 1) are worth that fee and 2) are owned by people who can afford to spend it multiple times a year -- but it WOULD increase the mid range books. As I said, if you don't have to budget for transportation costs, you can now maybe think about a $7,500 stud fee instead of a $4,000 one.
There would be a mare shift and the bottom feeders stallions would suffer the most because they would be the ones to lose mares to higher priced stallions with nothing below them moving up to their level. Frankly, that doesn't bother me in the least and I'd be happy as hell to see it.
It's funny as I was just thinking about this the other day... if they have to DNA test the foal for registration anyway, why not allow it?
I agree with Sam:
And, if it went international... think of the possibilities!
For someone like me, I could eliminate travel, boarding, stress on my mare (and on my gelding, who will be left behind), my stress, and I could AI at any time my mare is in heat, conveniently in-state. Heck of a lot easier if you ask me!
I'd think stallion owners would jump at the chance... less wear on the stallions physically, no physical risk of breeding injury, less chaos on the farm during breeding season, and money-wise, one dosage can be cut numerous times... less effort for more $$ potentially...
No one would be losing business, it would be a transition on how it's conducted... kinda like when my industry (graphic design) went from doing paste-ups by hand to computers... same trade, new tools...
I'm all for it!
I agree with Sam:
What would happen is that regional breeders would have a better selection of stallions to choose from at a little higher stud fee since they would no longer have to budget for transportation to and from the farm.
A mare owner could choose THE BEST STALLION FOR THE MARE instead of the best stallion that he could get to based on geographical/financial restrictions.
And, if it went international... think of the possibilities!
For someone like me, I could eliminate travel, boarding, stress on my mare (and on my gelding, who will be left behind), my stress, and I could AI at any time my mare is in heat, conveniently in-state. Heck of a lot easier if you ask me!
I'd think stallion owners would jump at the chance... less wear on the stallions physically, no physical risk of breeding injury, less chaos on the farm during breeding season, and money-wise, one dosage can be cut numerous times... less effort for more $$ potentially...
No one would be losing business, it would be a transition on how it's conducted... kinda like when my industry (graphic design) went from doing paste-ups by hand to computers... same trade, new tools...
I'm all for it!
Here I sit in Poodunk, Arkansas and I can breed my quarterhorse mare's to annnnnny quarterhorse stud I want. The only thing that limit's my choice is my pocketbook! My mare doesn't have to travel more than 5 miles. No muss, no fuss.
If this mare has a career (cutting), and we don't want to take her out for a year, we can do embyro transplant. That will only be about 3 month's down time. That used to be pretty pricy, but it is now down to about $3-4K, which includes the surrogate mare, everything except the stud fee.
I suspect that some of the so-so thoroughbred stallion's would become pretty good gelding's. AI would certainly weed them out. The really good stallion's would still get plenty of mare's.
If this mare has a career (cutting), and we don't want to take her out for a year, we can do embyro transplant. That will only be about 3 month's down time. That used to be pretty pricy, but it is now down to about $3-4K, which includes the surrogate mare, everything except the stud fee.
I suspect that some of the so-so thoroughbred stallion's would become pretty good gelding's. AI would certainly weed them out. The really good stallion's would still get plenty of mare's.
Laissez les bon temps rouller!
Hi all,
You all make some good points about benefits of AI. Safety for the horses (maybe less fun
), cost effectiveness, breeding to the best blood (for less), etc. It would be cheaper and better for my mares to remain at home with their foals and be bred without shipping. Period.
You may not agree with TBLady, but she's right that there would be some economic impact, especially on seasonal farms and truckers. Vets might have to generalize more than specialize.
On balance, AI clearly presents many advantages for the breeder and most importantly, the horses. It won't happen.
The big stud farms want to be Bloomingdales and Nieman-Marcus not Wal-Mart and K-Mart. Tradition in KY runs deep and strong and change isn't in the nature of those that control the industry. Hard to find electrical fencing in KY for this reason. Many of the large breeders are concerned that sales prices would fall.
The fact is though that we can't allow AI to happen. Not to protect the interests of the wealthy who control the industry, but to preserve the breed. With AI the thoroughbred as a breed would eventually cease to exist. It would become an irretrievable genetic loss.
Horse breeds that allow AI also allow breeding to other breeds but you can't register a thoroughbred unless its parents are registered thoroughbreds. There's good reason for this since inclusion of other blood (like standardbreds) may have some beneficial traits, but it would take at least 6 generations (ostensibly 60 years) to overcome the negative effects this blood would have on the speed in a pedigree and thoroughbreds are only about speed.
This simple fact would diminish the variety and vitality of the gene pool (that is already too small). Imagine the TB gene pool as pieces of glass in a kaleidoscope. Turn the scope and you see a different pattern but as you remove pieces of glass you'll start to see more and more similar patterns and colors.
Despite compelling benefits, AI can't be used in a homogenous breed that can't accept any other blood without diminishment. The thoroughbred would have an ever shrinking gene pool and within only a few generations the breed might be destroyed.
Regards,
Pete
You all make some good points about benefits of AI. Safety for the horses (maybe less fun
), cost effectiveness, breeding to the best blood (for less), etc. It would be cheaper and better for my mares to remain at home with their foals and be bred without shipping. Period.
You may not agree with TBLady, but she's right that there would be some economic impact, especially on seasonal farms and truckers. Vets might have to generalize more than specialize.
On balance, AI clearly presents many advantages for the breeder and most importantly, the horses. It won't happen.
The big stud farms want to be Bloomingdales and Nieman-Marcus not Wal-Mart and K-Mart. Tradition in KY runs deep and strong and change isn't in the nature of those that control the industry. Hard to find electrical fencing in KY for this reason. Many of the large breeders are concerned that sales prices would fall.
The fact is though that we can't allow AI to happen. Not to protect the interests of the wealthy who control the industry, but to preserve the breed. With AI the thoroughbred as a breed would eventually cease to exist. It would become an irretrievable genetic loss.
Horse breeds that allow AI also allow breeding to other breeds but you can't register a thoroughbred unless its parents are registered thoroughbreds. There's good reason for this since inclusion of other blood (like standardbreds) may have some beneficial traits, but it would take at least 6 generations (ostensibly 60 years) to overcome the negative effects this blood would have on the speed in a pedigree and thoroughbreds are only about speed.
This simple fact would diminish the variety and vitality of the gene pool (that is already too small). Imagine the TB gene pool as pieces of glass in a kaleidoscope. Turn the scope and you see a different pattern but as you remove pieces of glass you'll start to see more and more similar patterns and colors.
Despite compelling benefits, AI can't be used in a homogenous breed that can't accept any other blood without diminishment. The thoroughbred would have an ever shrinking gene pool and within only a few generations the breed might be destroyed.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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Gunter Prischl
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Re: AI, What would happen...
Slew83 wrote:1. If AI was allowed, what would happen to Kentucky?
2. Also If AI was allowed, would that open the door to multiple embryo transfers and cloning?
You will find that AI is all right for cattle and sheep - but according to tests done in the USA some time ago, it has proven beyond doubt, that AI foals were significantly inferior to live bred foals.
The reason for this as given, was that the nervous energy produced during a natural mating is totally absent in AI. Because of this lack of nervous energy AI has been banned by most (if not all) countries for thoroughbreds.
Gunter P
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Pete,
The leap you make between allowing AI, and allowing AI from other breeds to enter the TB gene pool, doesn't seem to be a strong argument againt AI.
With AI, some sort of genetic testing to prove exactly who the parents are would be required.
Just to get the bloodlines sorted out might be worth it. Imagine finishing the mtDNA family study, or seeing if there really are only three Y chromosomes in the entire gene pool.
Overall the interests of the very wealthy to control a limited resource will likely outweigh any benefit to the horses or small breeders that AI might bring.
There was a Australian breeder with a test case--mare was bred by "natural cover" the embryo was recovered and implanted in a host mare. Don't know how this turned out, anyone know if the JC decided to allow this?
The leap you make between allowing AI, and allowing AI from other breeds to enter the TB gene pool, doesn't seem to be a strong argument againt AI.
With AI, some sort of genetic testing to prove exactly who the parents are would be required.
Just to get the bloodlines sorted out might be worth it. Imagine finishing the mtDNA family study, or seeing if there really are only three Y chromosomes in the entire gene pool.
Overall the interests of the very wealthy to control a limited resource will likely outweigh any benefit to the horses or small breeders that AI might bring.
There was a Australian breeder with a test case--mare was bred by "natural cover" the embryo was recovered and implanted in a host mare. Don't know how this turned out, anyone know if the JC decided to allow this?
I think something that needs to be determined, is whether to allow AI AND shipping semen, or just AI. I think if AI ONLY was to be allowed, meaning only semen collected on farm was used to breed mares on farm (no shipping), not much would change, except stallions would last longer, breed more mares, and have a better chance at producing bigger crops (the ability to cover more mares on a lesser time frame). ALso, stallions and mares would be less likely to be injured in the process, and mares that are relucant to stand for breeding (maidens or first time mothers) can still be bred with minimal risk to mare, foal, and stallion (something I personally am all for). AI is a wonderful thing.
Shipping semen on the other hand, will have both a negative and positive effect. Many lesser quality stallions will be put out (not a bad thing in the eyes of the industry, but a potential devastating end to the owners of said stallions). Mares can be bred to a greater range of stallions, but don't be fooled into thinking it will be cheaper thasn sending your mares directly to the stud farm. Shipped semen is an expensive ordeal, adn the longer the distance, the more costly it becomes, and the more dependant things become on reliable and competant people on both ends.
Some huge regulatory factors that would come into play by nature alone would be the fact that there are many stallions out there that cannot be shipped on. The semen just can't handle the cooling process. There are others that will be distance regulated by the length of time the semen will survive in the coolant container. Not every stallion owner or farm can afford to set up shipping, adn not everyone will want to. The costs to a stallion owner to set up the lab and equipment required to ship semen on a regular basis (and it is just not financially smart to haul in to your vet every time if you want to do it more than once or twice a season) are astronomical. We are talking several thousands to set up the labs, and really, if you are not going to do it right (take a concentration and motility reading before shipping or breeding) why bother? You will get a poor rep when your semen gets to its desatination with only 15-20% motile sperm and the recieving vet asks what the starting motility was and you don't know. I can say from being on both the shipping and receiving end of things, it gets REALLY REALLY frustrating when you get 3 successive shipments with only 10% motlilty on arrival after less than 24 hours being cooled, and you ask the shipping farm and they say "oh, well, everything was just FINE when it left", but they can't give you ANY numbers.
Fees will go up, as shipping semen requires more paperwork for the registry (which may be part of the reason they don't want it!!). There will be more fees for stallio owners and mare owners when it comes time to file breeding reports and registration. Shipping itself is costly, anywhere from $40 to $500 to ship overnight couriers depending on where to where each time. Most stud farms charge a per cycle or per collection/shipment fee each time a mare is bred. All this ads up to often costing more than sending your mare off to the farm to be bred.
Repro vets will have just as much work with AI and shipping as they do with live cover now, and may infact have more because you will likely (with shipping anyways) need to breed through 2 cycles (seems to be Murphy's Law many times!) Shipping companies will still have to haul mares to stallions, and to vet clinics to recaive semen.
The dynamics of the breeding industry would likely shift, however, the upper end stallions would likely not be affected, because if you can afford a $75,000 stud fee, likely you don't have a problem paying the fees those farms charge. I think the biggest area of change would indeed be the middle class (or working class) stallions and mares. A larger market would be availible to mare owners (providing shipping is allowed as well as AI), and this may indeed IMPROVE the diversity of the breed by allowing mare owners to try more crosses, outcrosses and a larger stallion selection for their said mares. Case in point... I have a mare that I have beed guided would cross well on a stallion with River Bend (okay, I don't have the papers in fromt of me, so I might be wrong on his name
). The only stallion near me with this breeding is a stallion named Half A Year. Only problem is he is out of the same grand dam of my mare. So he is out. If I could ship semen, I could find a stallion elsewhere with this breeding WITHOUT the major inbreeding. SO for me, it would be a big benefit becasue I can't send my mare over the border to be bred.
I really don't htink the jockey club will be able to hld off for many more years without allowing AI, especially with all the allegations of it already being in use against regulation at some farms.
Shipping semen on the other hand, will have both a negative and positive effect. Many lesser quality stallions will be put out (not a bad thing in the eyes of the industry, but a potential devastating end to the owners of said stallions). Mares can be bred to a greater range of stallions, but don't be fooled into thinking it will be cheaper thasn sending your mares directly to the stud farm. Shipped semen is an expensive ordeal, adn the longer the distance, the more costly it becomes, and the more dependant things become on reliable and competant people on both ends.
Some huge regulatory factors that would come into play by nature alone would be the fact that there are many stallions out there that cannot be shipped on. The semen just can't handle the cooling process. There are others that will be distance regulated by the length of time the semen will survive in the coolant container. Not every stallion owner or farm can afford to set up shipping, adn not everyone will want to. The costs to a stallion owner to set up the lab and equipment required to ship semen on a regular basis (and it is just not financially smart to haul in to your vet every time if you want to do it more than once or twice a season) are astronomical. We are talking several thousands to set up the labs, and really, if you are not going to do it right (take a concentration and motility reading before shipping or breeding) why bother? You will get a poor rep when your semen gets to its desatination with only 15-20% motile sperm and the recieving vet asks what the starting motility was and you don't know. I can say from being on both the shipping and receiving end of things, it gets REALLY REALLY frustrating when you get 3 successive shipments with only 10% motlilty on arrival after less than 24 hours being cooled, and you ask the shipping farm and they say "oh, well, everything was just FINE when it left", but they can't give you ANY numbers.
Fees will go up, as shipping semen requires more paperwork for the registry (which may be part of the reason they don't want it!!). There will be more fees for stallio owners and mare owners when it comes time to file breeding reports and registration. Shipping itself is costly, anywhere from $40 to $500 to ship overnight couriers depending on where to where each time. Most stud farms charge a per cycle or per collection/shipment fee each time a mare is bred. All this ads up to often costing more than sending your mare off to the farm to be bred.
Repro vets will have just as much work with AI and shipping as they do with live cover now, and may infact have more because you will likely (with shipping anyways) need to breed through 2 cycles (seems to be Murphy's Law many times!) Shipping companies will still have to haul mares to stallions, and to vet clinics to recaive semen.
The dynamics of the breeding industry would likely shift, however, the upper end stallions would likely not be affected, because if you can afford a $75,000 stud fee, likely you don't have a problem paying the fees those farms charge. I think the biggest area of change would indeed be the middle class (or working class) stallions and mares. A larger market would be availible to mare owners (providing shipping is allowed as well as AI), and this may indeed IMPROVE the diversity of the breed by allowing mare owners to try more crosses, outcrosses and a larger stallion selection for their said mares. Case in point... I have a mare that I have beed guided would cross well on a stallion with River Bend (okay, I don't have the papers in fromt of me, so I might be wrong on his name
). The only stallion near me with this breeding is a stallion named Half A Year. Only problem is he is out of the same grand dam of my mare. So he is out. If I could ship semen, I could find a stallion elsewhere with this breeding WITHOUT the major inbreeding. SO for me, it would be a big benefit becasue I can't send my mare over the border to be bred.
I really don't htink the jockey club will be able to hld off for many more years without allowing AI, especially with all the allegations of it already being in use against regulation at some farms.
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Pete wrote:
Horse breeds that allow AI also allow breeding to other breeds but you can't register a thoroughbred unless its parents are registered thoroughbreds.
Regards,
Pete
That isn't true. Just off the top of my head, Qh's and Arabians don't allow breeding to other breeds. Well, arabians do, but they are registered as such (halfbreds) and don't get all the benefits of the registry the purebreds do. And, you don't think the gene pool is shrinking already with these shuttle stallions and others breeding to 200 mares a year? AI isn't going to change those numbers.
I'm all for it. If it was allowed then I wouldn't be paying off a 7,000.00 vet bill because I had to ship my mare to a breeding farm where overworked, heartless personnel tried to kill her.
"Most people hate the taste of beer to begin with. It is, however, a prejudice that many people have been able to overcome."-Winston Churchill
Hi Shannon, XFactor and Toadie,
Shannon, you make some excellent points.
Toadie, Arabian owners breed for more reasons than racing and QH (are you sure they don't allow TB blood?) have something like 200,000 foals a year so AI would impact them less - nd they too are bred for more purposes than a TB. I hear you about the vet bill and I comiserate. Was it Haggard, Doittoya and McGreed? (sp)
XFactor, I don't think I was clear so I understand your misunderstanding me. DNA and ascertaining parentage isn't a problem. The lack of possibility for new blood is.
Thoroughbreds can't accept any other blood than their own and since breeders breed for one thing only - speed, they will condense the gene pool. Unlike any other breed there is only one purpose behind the breeding and no new blood can be added. Relying on breeders to be practical is impractical.
Thoroughbred stallions do have semen shipped for non TB matings.
Regards,
Pete
Shannon, you make some excellent points.
Toadie, Arabian owners breed for more reasons than racing and QH (are you sure they don't allow TB blood?) have something like 200,000 foals a year so AI would impact them less - nd they too are bred for more purposes than a TB. I hear you about the vet bill and I comiserate. Was it Haggard, Doittoya and McGreed? (sp
)
XFactor, I don't think I was clear so I understand your misunderstanding me. DNA and ascertaining parentage isn't a problem. The lack of possibility for new blood is.
Thoroughbreds can't accept any other blood than their own and since breeders breed for one thing only - speed, they will condense the gene pool. Unlike any other breed there is only one purpose behind the breeding and no new blood can be added. Relying on breeders to be practical is impractical.
Thoroughbred stallions do have semen shipped for non TB matings.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
toadie wrote:Pete wrote:
Horse breeds that allow AI also allow breeding to other breeds but you can't register a thoroughbred unless its parents are registered thoroughbreds.
Regards,
Pete
That isn't true. Just off the top of my head, Qh's and Arabians don't allow breeding to other breeds. Well, arabians do, but they are registered as
such (halfbreds) and don't get all the benefits of the registry the purebreds do. And, you don't think the gene pool is shrinking already with these shuttle stallions and others breeding to 200 mares a year? AI isn't going to change those numbers.
I'm all for it. If it was allowed then I wouldn't be paying off a 7,000.00 vet bill because I had to ship my mare to a breeding farm where overworked, heartless personnel tried to kill her.
This is all to common along with foals being killed from bad help on farms and contracting all sorts of disease and sickness as a result of being introduced to horses coming and going from all parts of the country etc.
I thought MRLS was the beginning of the end of the breeding industry as we have known it... but it has survived.. so far. Mark it down there will be other disasters in the not to distant future along the lines of MRLS and then perhaps the changes being discussed will begin to take place.
Studs being bred to 100 plus mares a year(common for the sought after stallions)is every bit as bad as AI. The cat is long since out of the bag. Change is coming.. its just a matter of when and how drastic.
Notice to that the horse farms/properties in KY have not appreciated in value as other real estate has throughout the country. The old farms close to Lexington have been and are being sold for commercial use etc. They don't have anywhere near that kind of value as TB breeding farm(s). This is another red flag that change is in the offing.