Tenpins
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Tenpins
Here is another horse that fits an eariler post as he was a super talented racehorse & was bred in Michigan. He recorded 10 triple digit beyers in a row including a 110, 111 & 113. When he was right he was rarley even headed in a race. He did have tremendous route speed. I am & always have been a fan of Smart Strike. Who knows what a son of his will do in the stud barn but with the talent Tenpins displayed on the track & from a very good enough female family I would def give him alot of consideration at a fair $6,500 stud fee.
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louis finochio
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Tenpins
I like Tenpins pedigree, it is a blend of each sire line and well balanced. How many sons of Smart Strike have been successful sires ? For the small and middle breeder Tenpins will bear watching to see if he makes a useful sire.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
Howdy,
Louis, you may have been a reproductive prodigy, but as Monicabee says, give the sons of Smart Strike a chance.
I have Tenpins PPs if anyone's interested.
Tenpins was well spotted by his connections during his career. The betting public seems to have figured him out and he proved little more than competitive in better company. Against lesser, he generally won. A front running middle distance router, he won the Philip Iselin H like his sire.
At first blush his pedigree seems impressive, then unimpressive, then less impressive, but look deeper. All three of Tenpins older siblings are SWs, but all in Michigan restricted stakes. Second dam, Overreaction was a minor SW and G3 placed, but her production was weak and only Maid's Broom of her 4 daughters has had any success as a broodmare.
3rd dam, Bambee T. T. was a solid producer of 4 SWs and dam of the useful sire, Ascot Knight. Interesting that none of her daughters produced any black-type - mirroring the lack of success of Overreaction.
More interesting to me is that Bambee T. T. is a full sister to Kankakee Miss, dam of the good sire, Clever Trick and there I believe you can start looking for blood affinities.
Smart Strike has just had his fee lifted to $35,000. A bit high off his sales results, but not entirely unwarranted by the performance of his get at the track. In effect, Smart Strike is at the top of the heap of race horse sires.
Tenpins is his best son to date, with a very similar race profile and perhaps more soundness, at less than 1/5th his fee. If I'm breeding to race and I like Smart Strike or intend to breed to Smart Strike, I find a mare for Tenpins too.
Regards,
Pete
Louis, you may have been a reproductive prodigy, but as Monicabee says, give the sons of Smart Strike a chance.
I have Tenpins PPs if anyone's interested.
Tenpins was well spotted by his connections during his career. The betting public seems to have figured him out and he proved little more than competitive in better company. Against lesser, he generally won. A front running middle distance router, he won the Philip Iselin H like his sire.
At first blush his pedigree seems impressive, then unimpressive, then less impressive, but look deeper. All three of Tenpins older siblings are SWs, but all in Michigan restricted stakes. Second dam, Overreaction was a minor SW and G3 placed, but her production was weak and only Maid's Broom of her 4 daughters has had any success as a broodmare.
3rd dam, Bambee T. T. was a solid producer of 4 SWs and dam of the useful sire, Ascot Knight. Interesting that none of her daughters produced any black-type - mirroring the lack of success of Overreaction.
More interesting to me is that Bambee T. T. is a full sister to Kankakee Miss, dam of the good sire, Clever Trick and there I believe you can start looking for blood affinities.
Smart Strike has just had his fee lifted to $35,000. A bit high off his sales results, but not entirely unwarranted by the performance of his get at the track. In effect, Smart Strike is at the top of the heap of race horse sires.
Tenpins is his best son to date, with a very similar race profile and perhaps more soundness, at less than 1/5th his fee. If I'm breeding to race and I like Smart Strike or intend to breed to Smart Strike, I find a mare for Tenpins too.
Regards,
Pete
Pete, (and everyone else)
I guess the answer for "breed to race" is a definite maybe.
What about commercially? I'm not sure he has the name recognition, sire, or farm behind him to be a commercial success.
This is in no way a knock on the horse, rather a statement, to some degree about the market and marketability of a stallion.
Tenpins is also from the same family as Alydeed... and that one hasn't been much of a success. I own a mare who is a close relative of one of Alydeed's best runners... I would love to breed to Tenpins based on pedigree alone, as everything is there and points to an optimum mating... but, how can I justify it commercially?
It has been my experience that the commercial market truly cares very little about such matings. Rather the market looks at sire, page, and individual... rarely is much consideration given to anything more.
I guess the answer for "breed to race" is a definite maybe.
What about commercially? I'm not sure he has the name recognition, sire, or farm behind him to be a commercial success.
This is in no way a knock on the horse, rather a statement, to some degree about the market and marketability of a stallion.
Tenpins is also from the same family as Alydeed... and that one hasn't been much of a success. I own a mare who is a close relative of one of Alydeed's best runners... I would love to breed to Tenpins based on pedigree alone, as everything is there and points to an optimum mating... but, how can I justify it commercially?
It has been my experience that the commercial market truly cares very little about such matings. Rather the market looks at sire, page, and individual... rarely is much consideration given to anything more.
Hi KAL,
You're absolutely right - buyers don't look for the clever mating and they won't pay for it.
Tenpins commercial appeal will rest on the appeal of his sire, Smart Strike who is still something of a sleeper with breeders since he rebounded after a slow start at stud (but he's not a sleeper with Lane's End who raised his 2005 fee to $35,000).
Tenpins at $6,500 is in reasonable price range for people who breed to race. Given the similarities in quality of Tenpins and Smart Strike at the track (consistancy and quality) and Smart Strike's success at stud, anyone who likes Smart Strike (breeding to race) should consider Tenpins as well with a lesser mare and save the $28,500 (plus tax).
KAL, you can't commercially justify Tenpins for your mare (relative of Alydeed). If you do breed her to Tenpins, you do so with the hope and expectation that Smart Strike gets a big horse before you sell your foal. Possible, even a good possibility, but a roll of the dice to be sure.
Tenpins may be best leveraged commercially in his 4th or even 5th crop where you may have price accomodation, a lull of interest and stored potential. My feeling is that he's not prohibitivly priced and he's on my radar - I'll be watching
Regards,
Pete
You're absolutely right - buyers don't look for the clever mating and they won't pay for it.
Tenpins commercial appeal will rest on the appeal of his sire, Smart Strike who is still something of a sleeper with breeders since he rebounded after a slow start at stud (but he's not a sleeper with Lane's End who raised his 2005 fee to $35,000).
Tenpins at $6,500 is in reasonable price range for people who breed to race. Given the similarities in quality of Tenpins and Smart Strike at the track (consistancy and quality) and Smart Strike's success at stud, anyone who likes Smart Strike (breeding to race) should consider Tenpins as well with a lesser mare and save the $28,500 (plus tax).
KAL, you can't commercially justify Tenpins for your mare (relative of Alydeed). If you do breed her to Tenpins, you do so with the hope and expectation that Smart Strike gets a big horse before you sell your foal. Possible, even a good possibility, but a roll of the dice to be sure.
Tenpins may be best leveraged commercially in his 4th or even 5th crop where you may have price accomodation, a lull of interest and stored potential. My feeling is that he's not prohibitivly priced and he's on my radar - I'll be watching
Regards,
Pete
Pete,
Thanks for the thoughts... and support. The more you "talk" the smarter I feel.
I have pretty much the exact thoughts. No matter how much I would like to give him a try... I've gotta' wait.
Now, if Smart Strike gets a "big one" then we may hit the "go" sooner. Otherwise, I will be looking carefully at Tenpins foals over the next couple years.
So far, I've haven't been particularly let down by doing this... bred to Tactical Cat, Artax, and Cape Town, on "bubble" years. Although, I did make a major blunder with Twining... and I learned a great lesson because of it... I didn't look at his foals, rather, I looked at their record. Thankfully, I only had one.
Thanks for the thoughts... and support. The more you "talk" the smarter I feel.
I have pretty much the exact thoughts. No matter how much I would like to give him a try... I've gotta' wait.
Now, if Smart Strike gets a "big one" then we may hit the "go" sooner. Otherwise, I will be looking carefully at Tenpins foals over the next couple years.
So far, I've haven't been particularly let down by doing this... bred to Tactical Cat, Artax, and Cape Town, on "bubble" years. Although, I did make a major blunder with Twining... and I learned a great lesson because of it... I didn't look at his foals, rather, I looked at their record. Thankfully, I only had one.
Hi KAL and Pete
As always...interesting commentary...
...but I believe you are being very generous in your references to Smart Strike...
Have you seen him? A very high risk front end (I expect that's why he had such a limited number of starts)...and he sires it too often...that certainly cannot help him as a sales sire.
And as a race horse sire...he gets an abundance of second and third level stakes horses that cannot compete with the big boys...but often do perform well versus Canadian and Puerto Rican competition...and lesser U.S. runners.
Like any thoroughbred stallion...he may come up with a top one (example: even Ole Bob Bowers came up with John Henry)...but I believe he may best be described as a very useful race horse sire (NOT top-class by any stretch of the imagination)...and a so-so sales sire...with a front end that is extremely dangerous to ignore.
I believe he was very risky at $25,000...so you might imagine what I think of him at $35,000...
This game is perilous enough without falling for some Lanes End-hype that may "convince" you that he should be on anyone's short list. Pete and KAL...you are too sharp for that.
Compare him to other active sires from his family...Sky Classic and Regal Classic...at least they were champions...but they too get 2nd and 3rd level stakes horses...are priced at a fraction of what SS stands for...but are also not very appealing in my book.
Smart Strike...ridiculous at $35k...and he has a lot to prove before he is worthy of serious consideration as an exciting prospect to be a successful sire-of-sires.
Best to you always.
Respectfully
As always...interesting commentary...
...but I believe you are being very generous in your references to Smart Strike...
Have you seen him? A very high risk front end (I expect that's why he had such a limited number of starts)...and he sires it too often...that certainly cannot help him as a sales sire.
And as a race horse sire...he gets an abundance of second and third level stakes horses that cannot compete with the big boys...but often do perform well versus Canadian and Puerto Rican competition...and lesser U.S. runners.
Like any thoroughbred stallion...he may come up with a top one (example: even Ole Bob Bowers came up with John Henry)...but I believe he may best be described as a very useful race horse sire (NOT top-class by any stretch of the imagination)...and a so-so sales sire...with a front end that is extremely dangerous to ignore.
I believe he was very risky at $25,000...so you might imagine what I think of him at $35,000...
This game is perilous enough without falling for some Lanes End-hype that may "convince" you that he should be on anyone's short list. Pete and KAL...you are too sharp for that.
Compare him to other active sires from his family...Sky Classic and Regal Classic...at least they were champions...but they too get 2nd and 3rd level stakes horses...are priced at a fraction of what SS stands for...but are also not very appealing in my book.
Smart Strike...ridiculous at $35k...and he has a lot to prove before he is worthy of serious consideration as an exciting prospect to be a successful sire-of-sires.
Best to you always.
Respectfully
FOS,
Good commentary. Actually, outside of adding some things about Smart Strike, I think you got to the same point as Pete and I did.
I'll leave it to you and Pete to fight over Smart Strike. I am lukewarm in my regards for him. However, even if I really, really liked him, I could not justify breeding to him because of his lack of commercial appeal.
You hit a fantastic point regarding Sky Classic and Regal Classic. Neither of them is very commercial either.
I will still be looking at the Tenpins foals and watching for a big runner from Smart Strike (one which would drive his commercial appeal). But, as stated earlier... he is off my list for 2005.
Oh... I have become pretty much spin immune... as you probably have figured (remember, even while I was defending Exploit... I still had no plans to breed to him... and he was spun hard and long by Taylor boys.)
I actually like this board for that exact reason. One can get some idea how effective the spin doctors might be while getting some solid non spin stuff from those who see through it.
Good commentary. Actually, outside of adding some things about Smart Strike, I think you got to the same point as Pete and I did.
I'll leave it to you and Pete to fight over Smart Strike. I am lukewarm in my regards for him. However, even if I really, really liked him, I could not justify breeding to him because of his lack of commercial appeal.
You hit a fantastic point regarding Sky Classic and Regal Classic. Neither of them is very commercial either.
I will still be looking at the Tenpins foals and watching for a big runner from Smart Strike (one which would drive his commercial appeal). But, as stated earlier... he is off my list for 2005.
Oh... I have become pretty much spin immune... as you probably have figured (remember, even while I was defending Exploit... I still had no plans to breed to him... and he was spun hard and long by Taylor boys.)
I actually like this board for that exact reason. One can get some idea how effective the spin doctors might be while getting some solid non spin stuff from those who see through it.
Hi folks,
I meant to respond to this thread a few days ago.
KAL, you hit it on the head, FOS heard someting different from what we said. We see eye to eye on Smart Strike and Tenpins.
FOS, aside from your spin (that KAL and I like and would/might breed to Smart Strike) your points are well noted.
I was recommending Smart Strike when his fee $20,000 and $25,000 compared to his current $35,000. If I get a client into a stallion and his fee goes up - I did my job well and they tend to profit. Lane's End has fully valued him now and I don't consider him a value going forward.
FOS, I know Smart Strike's conformational faults and they have worked against his sales averages, but his percentage of winners is good and they tend to be good quality winners. Unlike Alphabet Soup, Smart Strike does sell well, if not extraordinarily so.
As far as his Canadian earnings, what's the point? Smart Strike comes by his enthusiastic reception in Canada honestly because of his family. Alphabet Soup has a similar appeal in Canada because of his BC win (and the Stronach connection) there and just from what I see (and I race in Canada) has a greater portion of his progeny earnings in Canada compared to Smart Strike.
Mockingbird, Adena and Hill N' Dale (amongst others) all leveraged Canadian earnings, but this year they weren't very impactful (exchange rate at @$1.25/$1.00) and Smart Strike, like him or not, is getting good runners by the bagful.
The bottom line is that barring any spectacular rise in Smart Strike's stock that increases Tenpins visibility, KAL and I seemed to agree that we'll look to breed to him (if at all) when his first foals are ready to race.
Regards,
Pete
I meant to respond to this thread a few days ago.
KAL, you hit it on the head, FOS heard someting different from what we said. We see eye to eye on Smart Strike and Tenpins.
FOS, aside from your spin (that KAL and I like and would/might breed to Smart Strike) your points are well noted.
I was recommending Smart Strike when his fee $20,000 and $25,000 compared to his current $35,000. If I get a client into a stallion and his fee goes up - I did my job well and they tend to profit. Lane's End has fully valued him now and I don't consider him a value going forward.
FOS, I know Smart Strike's conformational faults and they have worked against his sales averages, but his percentage of winners is good and they tend to be good quality winners. Unlike Alphabet Soup, Smart Strike does sell well, if not extraordinarily so.
As far as his Canadian earnings, what's the point? Smart Strike comes by his enthusiastic reception in Canada honestly because of his family. Alphabet Soup has a similar appeal in Canada because of his BC win (and the Stronach connection) there and just from what I see (and I race in Canada) has a greater portion of his progeny earnings in Canada compared to Smart Strike.
Mockingbird, Adena and Hill N' Dale (amongst others) all leveraged Canadian earnings, but this year they weren't very impactful (exchange rate at @$1.25/$1.00) and Smart Strike, like him or not, is getting good runners by the bagful.
The bottom line is that barring any spectacular rise in Smart Strike's stock that increases Tenpins visibility, KAL and I seemed to agree that we'll look to breed to him (if at all) when his first foals are ready to race.
Regards,
Pete
Hi Pete
I believe Smart Strike's front end is dangerous territory for a breeder to attempt to overcome. I could never use him (at any price) or recommend him...but obviously your "comfort zone" is different than mine. Your comments are respected...but (again) he is not a stallion that I could consider at any price.
When I first heard that Smart Strike was being retired to Lanes End (years ago) I found him to be a very interesting prospect...mainly because the son of Mr. Prospector had talent plus his owner/breeder Ernie Samuels had consistent great success (particularly in Canada)...and I had tremendous respect for his Samson Farm's numerous (and often meritorious) accomplishments.
Then I saw Smart Strike for the first time...and it was clear immediately that he was not a horse that I could consider using under any circumstances...and I feel the same today regardless of his degree of (sire) success...as you indicated.
Regardless of my viewpoint...I'm surprised that you had recommended him...since you specifically indicated in another post that discussed unacceptable "flaws" that ... "#2: Rotation of the knee (no matter how)." ...is an unacceptable flaw to you.
I understand that Smart Strike is getting runners...but I consider him too "risky" for me...I'd probably be the "lucky" breeder that gets the foal that looks just like the sire (in this case Smart Strike)...isn't that what we often strive and hope for? But in this case that's not what we want (as breeders and sellers)...a front end like the sire (Smart Strike).
As always...best to you.
Respectfully
I believe Smart Strike's front end is dangerous territory for a breeder to attempt to overcome. I could never use him (at any price) or recommend him...but obviously your "comfort zone" is different than mine. Your comments are respected...but (again) he is not a stallion that I could consider at any price.
When I first heard that Smart Strike was being retired to Lanes End (years ago) I found him to be a very interesting prospect...mainly because the son of Mr. Prospector had talent plus his owner/breeder Ernie Samuels had consistent great success (particularly in Canada)...and I had tremendous respect for his Samson Farm's numerous (and often meritorious) accomplishments.
Then I saw Smart Strike for the first time...and it was clear immediately that he was not a horse that I could consider using under any circumstances...and I feel the same today regardless of his degree of (sire) success...as you indicated.
Regardless of my viewpoint...I'm surprised that you had recommended him...since you specifically indicated in another post that discussed unacceptable "flaws" that ... "#2: Rotation of the knee (no matter how)." ...is an unacceptable flaw to you.
I understand that Smart Strike is getting runners...but I consider him too "risky" for me...I'd probably be the "lucky" breeder that gets the foal that looks just like the sire (in this case Smart Strike)...isn't that what we often strive and hope for? But in this case that's not what we want (as breeders and sellers)...a front end like the sire (Smart Strike).
As always...best to you.
Respectfully
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springboro
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Sorry, but I just had to bump this up to the top.... I was researching Tenpins and saw this. Hindsight is 20/20, eh?
FOS wrote:Hi KAL and Pete
As always...interesting commentary...
...but I believe you are being very generous in your references to Smart Strike...
Have you seen him? A very high risk front end (I expect that's why he had such a limited number of starts)...and he sires it too often...that certainly cannot help him as a sales sire.
And as a race horse sire...he gets an abundance of second and third level stakes horses that cannot compete with the big boys...but often do perform well versus Canadian and Puerto Rican competition...and lesser U.S. runners.
Like any thoroughbred stallion...he may come up with a top one (example: even Ole Bob Bowers came up with John Henry)...but I believe he may best be described as a very useful race horse sire (NOT top-class by any stretch of the imagination)...and a so-so sales sire...with a front end that is extremely dangerous to ignore.
I believe he was very risky at $25,000...so you might imagine what I think of him at $35,000...
This game is perilous enough without falling for some Lanes End-hype that may "convince" you that he should be on anyone's short list. Pete and KAL...you are too sharp for that.
Compare him to other active sires from his family...Sky Classic and Regal Classic...at least they were champions...but they too get 2nd and 3rd level stakes horses...are priced at a fraction of what SS stands for...but are also not very appealing in my book.
Smart Strike...ridiculous at $35k...and he has a lot to prove before he is worthy of serious consideration as an exciting prospect to be a successful sire-of-sires.
Best to you always.
Respectfully
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kimberley mine
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His foals (Tenpins, that is) start running this year, right?
On paper, he's Canadian-bred top and bottom, and in my observations both the foundation Sam-Som families (No Class and Loudrangle) and the foundation Windfields families LOVE a return of their own blood. Clever Trick and Wild Again are the obvious places to start, but given that Smart Strike himself has had some decent success with Sky Classic and Regal Classic mares, that might be a place to look. I think it would be really interesting to see him or Smart Strike with a Tilt the Stars mare (if you can find one).
I note that several foals in the database have pedigrees that suggest that folks who bred to him are riding the same train of thought. Here's one little boy who is either the poster child for inbreeding OR the most clever bit of pedigree magic this side of Lord Derby (and we'll never know until he runs):
http://www.pedigreequery.com/luster+king
On paper, he's Canadian-bred top and bottom, and in my observations both the foundation Sam-Som families (No Class and Loudrangle) and the foundation Windfields families LOVE a return of their own blood. Clever Trick and Wild Again are the obvious places to start, but given that Smart Strike himself has had some decent success with Sky Classic and Regal Classic mares, that might be a place to look. I think it would be really interesting to see him or Smart Strike with a Tilt the Stars mare (if you can find one).
I note that several foals in the database have pedigrees that suggest that folks who bred to him are riding the same train of thought. Here's one little boy who is either the poster child for inbreeding OR the most clever bit of pedigree magic this side of Lord Derby (and we'll never know until he runs):
http://www.pedigreequery.com/luster+king
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louis finochio
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