Breeding/Soundness Question

BJ · Postby BJ » Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:50 pm

Has anyone here had or known of any soundness issues with any horses bred 2 x 3 to Northern Dancer?

I thought I read somewhere (here) that ND was a source of unsoundness through Natalma and wanted to check to see if anyone had any personal or close to personal experience with almost 40% aggregate total ND blood.

Down the line, in the breeding shed, what lines would be best with that concentration of ND blood?

I know it depends a lot on the surrounding bloodlines, but I wanted to know IF this was a rumor or based in actual example that I could look at.

Thanks,
BJ

yukidragon · Postby **yukidragon** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:22 pm

I read somewhere few years back that you increase the chances of having a small foal,when you inbred to Northern Dancer close-up.

BJ · Postby BJ » Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:49 am

yukidragon wrote:I read somewhere few years back that you increase the chances of having a small foal,when you inbred to Northern Dancer close-up.

Hi Yukidragon,

That makes sense and that would be important in a commercial sense. Personally, I've seen an awful lot of GREAT small horses (including ND), so size of the foal doesn't impress me like it does some people. But, from a commercial standpoint, size of the foals is a major issue to consider. Thanks for the input. Do you know of any examples to look at or research? Thanks again.

BJ

yukidragon · Postby **yukidragon** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:40 pm

I've been off my computer for a few months.
I have a ton of bookmarks.
It may take me awhile to find anything helpful.

yukidragon · Postby **yukidragon** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:48 pm

I forgot to tell you one filly I have is 18+ percent to ND.
Danzig's Nurse an she is fantastic an not a mini-me either.

Reviewer · Postby **Reviewer** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:06 pm

We have a yearling (about to become a 2 year old colt) which we just named Northern Tribute. He is inbred 3x3 to both Northern Dancer and Glowing Tribute. His aggregate % is about 28% (for both of the above). He is somewhat on the smaller side but well put together. I found it interesting that all of his white markings are identical to N.D.'s . I am sorry to say that I don't recall seeing any that were inbred 2x3 to N.D. or hearing any comments about them however.

louis finochio · Postby **louis finochio** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:11 am

Most all of the ND progeny were sent across the pond as the US tracks were to hard for their underpinning.

Get this info from the jockey club how many starters ND had and how many starters. Then divide the total starts into the total starters will give you the average starts lifetime of ND progeny.

8-10 / Low
11-15 / Middle of the Road
16-30 / High

BJ · Postby BJ » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:14 am

Reviewer wrote:We have a yearling (about to become a 2 year old colt) which we just named Northern Tribute. He is inbred 3x3 to both Northern Dancer and Glowing Tribute. His aggregate % is about 28% (for both of the above). He is somewhat on the smaller side but well put together. I found it interesting that all of his white markings are identical to N.D.'s . I am sorry to say that I don't recall seeing any that were inbred 2x3 to N.D. or hearing any comments about them however.

Love the name, Northern Tribute! Your yearling may be a great source of future research and answers. Wish we had a crystal ball ...hehe :wink:

, cuz unfortunately I need to try to get the answers for a friend by the beginning of next week

Best of luck with your colt!

BJ · Postby BJ » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:19 am

louis finochio wrote:Most all of the ND progeny were sent across the pond as the US tracks were to hard for their underpinning.

Get this info from the jockey club how many starters ND had and how many starters. Then divide the total starts into the total starters will give you the average starts lifetime of ND progeny.

8-10 / Low
11-15 / Middle of the Road
16-30 / High

Hi Louis,

Thanks for that. Unfortunately I need a database that can ferret out the inbreeding without having to look at each progeny. Wish the Stallion Register online would have the ability to go back a bit further in the dam and sire lines. As it is the StallionRegister.com is down from a data/power outage :shock:

BJ · Postby BJ » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:20 am

yukidragon wrote:I've been off my computer for a few months.
I have a ton of bookmarks.
It may take me awhile to find anything helpful.

Off your computer for a few months :?:

How on earth have you survived? :wink:

BJ · Postby BJ » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:43 pm

Found an example of ND 2 x 3 w/soundness & class:

Skimming, 20 starts and over $2 mil in earnings. Not bad. But yes, he is alleged to be "small" by those commercial breeders. Good looking though, IMO, except for his muzzle. You can sure see the ND influence in him!

Reviewer · Postby **Reviewer** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:13 am

Well, I later recalled that our about to be 3 year old colt who is a 1/2 to our about to be 2 year old Northern Tribute is also 3x3 Northern Dancer (by Half Term instead of Roar). However, he is not on the small side at all as he is at least 16h and still growing. I guess you may increase the chances of a smaller horse by inbreeding to Northern Dancer but as random chance sets in, you may just as well have a decent sized horse.

Reviewer

Flight · Postby **Flight** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:43 am

Speaking of inbreeding to ND, one of our more "colourful" breeders sent his Danehill mare, Ha Ha to Sadlers Wells for a SH mating.

The resultant colt is being offered at this month's Magic Millions yearling sale.

Check out the hypo and tell me what you think.

I hate it.

HJ · Postby HJ » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:35 am

The reverse cross of Danehill onto Sadler's Wells (ND 3x3) has been a very successful one and arguably the best 2 yr old in Europe Horatio Nelson is the latest star to emerge.

Flight · Postby **Flight** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:25 am

Sorry HJ but I don't agree.

I've had a quick look at the Danehill - SW and Fairy King progeny listed on this site and quite frankly, I can't get excited.

You would know Assafa as he is now in NZ. Out of a FK mare.

Dane Shakira showed some promise in Brisbane but never lived up to it. Her brothers, Saxon and Power Of Destiny are not what you would call world beaters. All out of the same SW mare. Happy Morning was sold to Macau.

Desert King is out of a Nurevey mare. A few out of Nijinsky mares have also gone well.

Danehill's best horses have been from non ND lines.

There is also nothing to suggest that Danehill mares to SW will produce a good horse.

Sure there are some breeders with deep pockets that will try to convince you otherwise however, they can afford to get it wrong more times than we can.

A few wins as a two or three year old doesn't make for a "good horse". It may do for the followers of fashion and hype but I would really like to know how many times the "experiment" went wrong.