Oh... I know this is such a dumb question...
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Oh... I know this is such a dumb question...
Can weight be an issue when it comes to soundness? If a horse is pretty obese can that be a cause of lameness?
Re: Oh... I know this is such a dumb question...
trackgal wrote:Can weight be an issue when it comes to soundness? If a horse is pretty obese can that be a cause of lameness?
I've been told and read, in numerous horse publications that weight is the #1 enemy of soundness. Not to mention the horse doesn't feel that well when it is overweight and won't perform at his optimum.
And, between you me and the fence post, I have unfortunately had personal experience with the answer to that question. It is a resounding YES!
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George William Smith
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soundness
It's not weight that's functional here, but supporting tissue and muscles.
It is highly useful to use overfat and not overweight, since muscle weighs three times as much as fat for the same area.
Skinny legs can be a good thing if the bone density is high. Some of the soundest runners have very thin legs, but very dense bone tissue to support it. Larger bone, but less dense has a much greater likelihood to give out at the weakest link. Often buyers note that a horse has big-boned legs and assume soundness. bad mistake
It is highly useful to use overfat and not overweight, since muscle weighs three times as much as fat for the same area.
Skinny legs can be a good thing if the bone density is high. Some of the soundest runners have very thin legs, but very dense bone tissue to support it. Larger bone, but less dense has a much greater likelihood to give out at the weakest link. Often buyers note that a horse has big-boned legs and assume soundness. bad mistake
Very good point, George. The matrix of the bone is what gives the bone strength - not the size of the bone.
Fine boned does not mean weak boned - there is a radiographic study that was performed on 2 yr old horses in training showing the rate of bone transformation ( increasing the bone matrix density) - using this information to determine when the horse can advance speed training in a safer manner ie, avoidance of shin bucking. The study mentioned that a fine boned animal tended to deposit the bone for added strentgh at a faster initial rate - and tended to avoid the shin bucks vs a large boned animal.
And as you mentioned , a large bone tends to have a wider matrix or web structer of the bone - a weaker structure of bone.
Fine boned does not mean weak boned - there is a radiographic study that was performed on 2 yr old horses in training showing the rate of bone transformation ( increasing the bone matrix density) - using this information to determine when the horse can advance speed training in a safer manner ie, avoidance of shin bucking. The study mentioned that a fine boned animal tended to deposit the bone for added strentgh at a faster initial rate - and tended to avoid the shin bucks vs a large boned animal.
And as you mentioned , a large bone tends to have a wider matrix or web structer of the bone - a weaker structure of bone.
I don't think bone density was/is the issue here. It was "obesity" being a cause of lameness.
Common sense dictates that no matter what the bone density, obesity is not healthy and can cause many problems with a horse, including lameness.
Yeah sure, a horse with better bone will withstand obesity better than a horse with brittle bone. But again, basic common sense says you don't let your horse get obese and hope to avoid problems associated with it, which can run the spectrum from digestive to founder.
Any trainer, vet, horsman in general, worth his/her salt, will not put a horse that is obese into heavy training, no matter what the bone density. They will take the weight off gradually, and build the supporting tissue gradually before subjecting to the rigors of getting race fit.
Patience and common sense is the key, IMO, not bone density, where OBESITY is the concern.
Common sense dictates that no matter what the bone density, obesity is not healthy and can cause many problems with a horse, including lameness.
Yeah sure, a horse with better bone will withstand obesity better than a horse with brittle bone. But again, basic common sense says you don't let your horse get obese and hope to avoid problems associated with it, which can run the spectrum from digestive to founder.
Any trainer, vet, horsman in general, worth his/her salt, will not put a horse that is obese into heavy training, no matter what the bone density. They will take the weight off gradually, and build the supporting tissue gradually before subjecting to the rigors of getting race fit.
Patience and common sense is the key, IMO, not bone density, where OBESITY is the concern.
I took trackgal's question of weight as an issue of the heavily muscled horse, since we all know that an obese horse won't successfully compete.
The most common injury TBs suffer are bone/joint injuries and tendon injuries - issues that can be affected by the heavily muscled thoroughbred we are breeding more of today. Also at issue is the artificially created heavily muscled Tb.
TBs would naturally create their own racing weight if it was their choice of training schedules. Since we decide the training, TB's are at risk for overtraining - leading to a catabolic state - a performance buster. Some trainers avoid this by giving steroids, diet supplements or extended periods of time off.
These interventions - esp steroids - can shift the weight balance. A heavily muscled horse hits the track harder, and any conformation defect is magnified by the force of weight.
An intact horse (sexually) can develop a thicker neck as he matures, also affecting weight, balance and soundness.
As George states, having the right bone structure for a muscled horse or any competive horse is critical to soundness - especially the heavy weighted horse.
The most common injury TBs suffer are bone/joint injuries and tendon injuries - issues that can be affected by the heavily muscled thoroughbred we are breeding more of today. Also at issue is the artificially created heavily muscled Tb.
TBs would naturally create their own racing weight if it was their choice of training schedules. Since we decide the training, TB's are at risk for overtraining - leading to a catabolic state - a performance buster. Some trainers avoid this by giving steroids, diet supplements or extended periods of time off.
These interventions - esp steroids - can shift the weight balance. A heavily muscled horse hits the track harder, and any conformation defect is magnified by the force of weight.
An intact horse (sexually) can develop a thicker neck as he matures, also affecting weight, balance and soundness.
As George states, having the right bone structure for a muscled horse or any competive horse is critical to soundness - especially the heavy weighted horse.
I've never heard a heavily or "lean" muscled horse referred to as obese. Obese means FAT, by all normal standards.
Tendon and bone injuries, are usually do to lack of fitness. Lack of fitness, to me, means any or all of the following: Too fat to withstand training without injury, under trained, trained to hard, too soon, etc., all of which will make a horse more vulnerable to injury. However, of all of those, the only that I think would be a source of stand-alone "lameness", without training (as in just in pasture), would be obesity. A horse that is heavily muscled is not usually an indication of obesity UNLESS, as you suggest, the horse was given steroids, which not only add muscle bulk, but break down bone.
Inherited good bone density that is not gradually trained into fitness will still be vulnerable to injury. But again, I think obesity is not a reference to muscle or bone.
Tendon and bone injuries, are usually do to lack of fitness. Lack of fitness, to me, means any or all of the following: Too fat to withstand training without injury, under trained, trained to hard, too soon, etc., all of which will make a horse more vulnerable to injury. However, of all of those, the only that I think would be a source of stand-alone "lameness", without training (as in just in pasture), would be obesity. A horse that is heavily muscled is not usually an indication of obesity UNLESS, as you suggest, the horse was given steroids, which not only add muscle bulk, but break down bone.
Inherited good bone density that is not gradually trained into fitness will still be vulnerable to injury. But again, I think obesity is not a reference to muscle or bone.
I had a mare that ran fat. She got half the feed the other horses did and you could not pull weight off of her. She probably had early onset Cushings, but she had the frame to support the weight and ran soundly until she was seven and had to endure fat jokes all the time 
On the other hand every top heavy horse we've ever had that did not have adequate leg structure underneath them were cripples flat out. While I agree that bone density does make a difference, if you put a brick up on four very dense matchsticks eventually the matchsticks will break at least that has been my observation.
On the other hand every top heavy horse we've ever had that did not have adequate leg structure underneath them were cripples flat out. While I agree that bone density does make a difference, if you put a brick up on four very dense matchsticks eventually the matchsticks will break at least that has been my observation.
I don't have low self-esteem. I have low esteem for everyone else. ~ Daria
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summerhorse
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Yeah fat horses are very prone to laminitis and founder (they are separate things), they can also get founder simply by being too massive for small feet (like road founder). A fit horse that is simply big probably won't have a problem UNLESS his feet are simply too small for his frame then he probably will. (Like those QH halter horses! most of them are USELESS for riding and suffer many bouts of laminitis, now how can a champion halter horse which is supposed to have the best conformation be useless as a riding horse? because the best conformation doesn't win!)
Every mighty oak was once an acorn that stood its ground.
Spain wrote:Fat is not only adding more weight for the bones to carry, it also causes inflammation. Obviously that is going to add to the unsoundness. Get the weight off the animal and that can help, espeically with joint unsoundness.
ragsdaj wrote:I attended a trim class a couple of weeks ago and yes obesity can and does cause many forms of lameness including founder.
Thank you Spain & Jon, for making those notable points!
BJ