I don't understand what matz is doing with union rags

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:29 pm

i think some harped on me too quick in the beginning of this thread. horses that aren't bred to go 10F often do go 10F. but, when you lay out your plans for a horse like this, you have to be 100% honest about what you have, his abilities and what your goal is and map out the best way to achieve that goal.

it's like, how can i say this. it's like matz let the media train his horse for him. if that makes sense. he let everyone tell him how super welcome his horse was he believed it. i'm not saying Union rags is a bum. he's quite good. i'm saying that his pedigree, and now faced with the fact that he has no foundation or not enough to that i think would make up for overcoming his genetic limitations, he's basically there in name only to me betting wise. and we are now at a point where it's too late to do anything different. for no other reason than the trainer miscalculated the type of horse he had.

he trained this horse like all he had to do was show up to the derby healthy and it was a wrap.

Bast · Postby **Bast** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:24 am

bdw0617 wrote:i think some harped on me too quick in the beginning of this thread. horses that aren't bred to go 10F often do go 10F. but, when you lay out your plans for a horse like this, you have to be 100% honest about what you have, his abilities and what your goal is and map out the best way to achieve that goal.

it's like, how can i say this. it's like matz let the media train his horse for him. if that makes sense. he let everyone tell him how super welcome his horse was he believed it. i'm not saying Union rags is a bum. he's quite good. i'm saying that his pedigree, and now faced with the fact that he has no foundation or not enough to that i think would make up for overcoming his genetic limitations, he's basically there in name only to me betting wise. and we are now at a point where it's too late to do anything different. for no other reason than the trainer miscalculated the type of horse he had.

he trained this horse like all he had to do was show up to the derby healthy and it was a wrap.

Many of these guys seem terrified of actually training their horses and having them get hurt in the morning, only to have them come up short in a race. Almost every year this happens in the Kentucky Derby~someone uses the Derby as a training race, and comes out of the race with a horse ready to run.

ct2346 · Postby **ct2346** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:53 am

Watch his gallop out before you condemn his distance limitations. I'm more in the Leparoux-had-a-bad-day camp.

casallc · Postby **casallc** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:13 am

I must have watched a different race. I saw a Union Rags that was gaining on the end - didn't hit a wall. Union Rags was poorly ridden and lack luster, he was out run by a better horse. There was no evidence of UR not being able to go the classics distance - just not fast enough to win.

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:34 am

If the human anchor had him outside and in the clear like last time he gallops. Not sure if he was instructed to cover him up or not, but that was the worst trip you could ask for and he was still running on at the wire.

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:51 am

wrong

JL pointed him / angled him outside in the turn into the stretch. if he had enough horse that was enough time to get the job done had he had enough horse. note that was about the same time he mad his move in the fountain of youth. people are just looking for a scapegoat here.

seriously guys you guys know better than to put that much stock into a gallop out. Take charge indy was practically cantering by the time they crossed the wire. he was a vry tired horse.

go ahead and waste your money on him in the derby, don't say i didn't warn you.

reenci · Postby **reenci** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:53 am

bad trip....but he's not the one for the first saturday in may.....

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:25 am

diomed wrote:
Georgerz wrote:Take Charge Indy's "stock" has risen considerably with this win. Gate to wire, and put away any challengers with easy.

I was impressed by him today. Most Indys don't have that kind of speed early. Borel really rode a great race. I looked at Take Charge Indy's pedigree. Brilliant match. AP Indy(stamina) over a mare that is totally bred for speed(Dehere/Rubiano). It might not be enough for 10f but he is a pain in the rear for 9f.

his trainer just said on HRTV he won't BREEZE him for 3 weeks :shock:

i did not realize take charge indy is out of take charge lady. that's a pretty good pedigree.

Bast · Postby **Bast** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:39 am

bdw0617 wrote:
diomed wrote:
Georgerz wrote:Take Charge Indy's "stock" has risen considerably with this win. Gate to wire, and put away any challengers with easy.

I was impressed by him today. Most Indys don't have that kind of speed early. Borel really rode a great race. I looked at Take Charge Indy's pedigree. Brilliant match. AP Indy(stamina) over a mare that is totally bred for speed(Dehere/Rubiano). It might not be enough for 10f but he is a pain in the rear for 9f.
his trainer just said on HRTV he won't BREEZE him for 3 weeks

i did not realize take charge indy is out of take charge lady. that's a pretty good pedigree.

The UnTraining of the American TB always amazes me.

casallc · Postby **casallc** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:15 pm

bdw0617 wrote:wrong

JL pointed him / angled him outside in the turn into the stretch. if he had enough horse that was enough time to get the job done had he had enough horse. note that was about the same time he mad his move in the fountain of youth. people are just looking for a scapegoat here.

seriously guys you guys know better than to put that much stock into a gallop out. Take charge indy was practically cantering by the time they crossed the wire. he was a vry tired horse.

go ahead and waste your money on him in the derby, don't say i didn't warn you.

I doubt there are very many people depending on your advice affecting their wealth portfolio. There are probably a lot more waiting on you to pay up.

kimberley mine · Postby **kimberley mine** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:06 pm

bdw0617 wrote: his trainer just said on HRTV he won't BREEZE him for 3 weeks

I saw that, plus a comment about how this horse needs 5 weeks between races. That made him an automatic toss for me.

2-3 weeks is how long it takes for residual fitness to begin to fade, if no additional work is done. At the end of 3 weeks of no breezing, he's back to where he was pre-FL Derby, meaning he could breeze enough in 2 weeks to get to where he was for a 9f race. NO room for improvement.

Matchemforever · Postby **Matchemforever** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:30 pm

I didn't see a backing up horse coming down the stretch. I just watched the race again and you see Union Rags gaining with every stride- watch his head move up as he races alongside the second place horse and both were gaining on the winner.

Union Rags also was steered to the inside first coming off the turn, then he had to go outside, so two moves for him to get into the clear.

Another eighth and this comes up a different race for me. YMMV.

Think maybe the jocks of both UR and El Padrino were paying too much attention to each others horse and not how the race was shaping up? I wonder if keeping UR boxed in cost El Padrino a bit?

majxmom · Postby **majxmom** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:15 pm

When Michael Matz was a show jumping rider, he went to the Olympics for the first time with a horse that he had trained aggressively, wanting to make sure that he was fit. What he realized after he got there was that the horse was tired and worn out. So when he had a chance to go back four years later, he told himself he would make sure he had a fresh horse. He won a gold medal.

So when Matz switched to racing and he was training Barbaro, he announced that he would not have another prep race between the Florida Derby and the KY Derby, which that year was 7 weeks, I believe. He wanted to make sure he had a fresh horse. Every turf writer in the country excoriated him, and few took Barbaro seriously in the Derby even though he was undefeated. But when he came blasting down the stretch, suddenly he was sublime. Look, Michael Matz is a person of extraordinary success and judgment, not just in the horse world, but he also was in a plane crash and made sure three children traveling without an adult got out of the burning aircraft with him. Did you know that he never even rode a horse until he was 14 years old? Yet he reached the pinnacle of not one but two equestrian sports by the time he was middle aged. He has been a success at everything he has ever tried, because he studies the scene and applies good judgment.

Union Rags got caught up in race riding. I thought Angel Cordero must have snuck out there. By the time he got clear, he made up some distance on the winner but by then he'd been stopped and started a bunch of times, so it's not at all surprising the horse didn't have much gas for the final eighth. But the horse I saw was fit for 10 furlongs. I agree that a GREAT horse would have won anyway -- that's WHY they are great -- but I think if I were Matz, I wouldn't change with anyone right now.

zinn21 · Postby **zinn21** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:51 am

I think UR will be tough in the Derby. He will get a lot out of FD. For me he's the horse to beat.

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:32 am

I'm glad to see that most of the horsemen and women on this post saw what I saw. By the way BDW I don't bet, aside from a few bucks on Derby and BC day, so you don't have to warn me off a horse. Not that I put any weight into the majority of what you post on here anyways.