Funny Cide still truckin'

[DukeSnider]

My theory is that in this day and age ,all the top horses get a long rest between races anywhere from 4-5weeks ,so as a 3yr. old when a horse runs in all 3 triple crown races it takes all he or she has. I really don't know of to many horses that have come back from running in all 3 to be as good as they were. They have comeback to be respectable ,but never to their greatness. Look at, Affirmed, Sec (Big Red), Alydar and the most recent Smarty Jones. I think they should put another week between each race. You look at their records before the Triple Crown and then look at it after,big difference.

[summerhorse]

Yeah Affirmed and Secretariat didn't do ANYTHING after the Belmont... ALydar got a fracture after the Travers (sometime) but came back later to be a graded SW (def. a step below his former form though).

Now TODAY'S TB, yeah, it seems to take the steam out of a lot of them. But is it the TC trail or the training/hard tracks? I suspect the latter more.

[Heidilady]

oh boy I'm gonna be good and not even open my mouth on this subject. Way too many paragraphs have been typed by me in the past. I'll give everybody a reprieve.

I happen to think a lot of these horses that supposedly are done in by the Triple Crown actually weren't fit to run in it to begin with and the trainers should've seen it a mile away---or a mile and a quarter, whatever. Three cheers for Harry Aleo. And Baffert's allegedly got 2 or 3 he's not even gonna bother trying to send that had been getting buzz cuz he knows they're sprinters. Remember Orientate was on the TC trail back in the day and see what he ends up doing for a living. Amazing how it takes after the spring of their 3yo year for the trainers come to their senses.

[DukeSnider]

I wasn't talking about the wanna be horses,I was talking about the top 3 yr. olds. The Triple Crown races are too close together. How many top horses who raced in all 3 TC races have comeback to do anything great in their 4yr old races. Right now I can only think of 1 and that was Seattle Slew. All the others either had soso yrs or retired to stud while the price was high. Why do you think they retired Smarty Jones 2 yrs ago and this yrs. Super Star. The 3 race took all they had. Some was because of the size of those fields ,to,to big. Like you said they would race their Mother or Father just to get their name on the program.

[Heidilady]

But that was my point. The supposed 'top 3yr olds' aren't as on top as they position themselves to be. A true top 3yo can handle the stress when trained properly. If they aren't trained properly it doesn't mean you adjust the races and if they are trained properly and are simply inferior enough not to stand up to the strain, they shouldn't have run in the first place. They aren't in fact 'top 3yr olds' after all. You've got a G2 winner in G1classic winner's clothing more often than not.

And the TC should be next to impossible to win but horses like Real Quiet have almost done it. I'm sorry but greatness, he ain't. It shouldn't be made any easier. If your horse can't take it, don't run. Shore up for the Travers and move on. And greed kept Point Given from trying to come back, as it did many other stallions, but that wasn't cuz the races were so hard on them as they were seeing dollar signs. That's different and that's a beef with the breeding industry, not the Triple Crown. And when asked, most trainers that want to win the TC would rather it stay as it is, Todd Pletcher's evidence of that. They ask em on tv and they almost all say that. Lukas might've said something different but I think he's just sour grapes that he hasn't wont a TC race in awhile. Plus I think he was half kidding.

[austique]

The rigors of the Triple Crown have nothing to do with the participants not doing well as older horses. You have to remember the Triple Crown is "restricted" to 3yos and when you hit the handicap ranks you're taking on a whole different group of horses. 3yo's from weak crops tend to falter when they hit open company just like horses who have run out of their conditions do.

That being said I don't think that's Funny Cide's issue. He proved he was competitive against older horses and his career reeks of a patching rathar than fixing training job. He's run sore for a while and now it will take a whole lot to make him think he's not sore. Racehorses can be a mentally funny bunch. Here's hoping he comes out of it.

[UmmYeah]

Well, I thought he looked good. Finished a very game 2nd. Hopefully this race will help get him back on track.

[kmlarkin]

I also hope for Funnycide to return to form and start winning again. Since he is the only Derby winner in the last several runnings that is still at the track. I know it's because he is a gelding.

I think a trainer change might be in order. Not to say that Barclay Tagg is not a good trainer, but I think the same old routine has bored him. New trainer, exercise rider, groom or whatever may shock him back to life.

Also, I do not believe it's the strain of the TC series that takes it out of the still not fully mature Thoroughbred, but rather the commercial breeding business. We continue to breed unsound horses for profit because of fashionable pedigrees or good on-track performance. Race distance is shortening and speed has become the most important ingredient. Case in point Ghostzapper - very fast, but only raced a handful of times because of soundness problems. It will take several generations to correct this problem with individuals who are dedicated to restrengthning the breed.

[sunday_silence]

Steve Haskin said in his chat this past week that he doesn't think it's possible to start breeding soundness back into the breed because there aren't enough sources of soundness left. He thinks the answer to keeping them sounder is Polytrack and not to soup up tracks for the superfast, record-breaking times.

I know it's just his opinion, but he's astute. How depressing.

If you were trying to breed a sound horse, which stallions would you use? Dynaformer and Devil His Due pop immediately into my head, but who else?

[Heidilady]

Case in point Ghostzapper - very fast, but only raced a handful of times because of soundness problems. It will take several generations to correct this problem with individuals who are dedicated to restrengthning the breed.

I always understood it that he was so lightning fast when he ran that it took forever for his body to recover afterwards and eventually it just couldn't take it anymore. Is it that unsoundness because sesamoids (that aren't the strongest part of their body anyway) can only pound so hard, so fast, for so long? Is it possible (and seriously I'm asking, this isn't rhetorical) that any horse with that talent and turn of foot regardless of how sound the legs were would've suffered a similar problem? It was Ruffian's sesamoids that went first I believe and what's unsoundness vs. unreasonable exertion on the part of the horse? Notice both of them were renowned for lightning speed and Ghostzapper had been a sprinter whereas some horses might take it a little easier on their own bodies. I didn't think of Awesome Again's offspring to be fragile is what I'm thinking about here.

[Heidilady]

Steve Haskin said in his chat this past week that he doesn't think it's possible to start breeding soundness back into the breed because there aren't enough sources of soundness left. He thinks the answer to keeping them sounder is Polytrack and not to soup up tracks for the superfast, record-breaking times.

I know it's just his opinion, but he's astute. How depressing.

If you were trying to breed a sound horse, which stallions would you use? Dynaformer and Devil His Due pop immediately into my head, but who else?

I disagree with Haskin (as much as I respect him) because unsoundness was bred in so it can go out again. I don't think it's a case of all horses as a preponderance of them. I mean think about it, if we're supposed to write off the influence of horses that are too many generations back, who's to say that after you work in enough soundness from other sources that have indicated it (and there are still some) that the unsoundness will be less effective the farther back it goes? Plus I'm an eternal optimist so I refuse to let it go. If the sport is full of drugs, financial corruption, and fragility then why bother? Exactly--let's dig in and stick to our guns people. It's still there. there are people like us who want it, and it's worth saving.

There are unfashionable lines that are rock solid compared to some of them and we have horses capable of running til age 10 or 12 even. What about Cetewayo? He's a hardknocker and a stud to boot. It might take longer to get soundness back in compared to what it is now but the genes are there and it's physically impossible to make them biologically non-existent for sure. Just extremely unlikely. Tiznow shows promise as far as sires go AND he's done amazing things on the track. I say that's a start. Avoiding Unbridled's Song like the plague, there's another.

[StrawberryFelidos]

Is it possible (and seriously I'm asking, this isn't rhetorical) that any horse with that talent and turn of foot regardless of how sound the legs were would've suffered a similar problem?

Respectfully, I have to disagree with the statement overall: even though sound horses can and do break down, it's not because they are too fast, it's mainly because accidents and missteps happen. Dr. Fager comes to mind as a lightning fast horse who didn't break his sesamoids- and he raced a looong time, by today's star standards (22 starts in three years). He retired sound and held the world record for a mile on dirt for many years, and he broke or equaled many other records. Speed didn't break him.

Good horses aren't destined to break down because they run too fast, but some do break down becasue their bones are weaker than others (and some have freak accidents or just take a bad step). Looking at examples like Fager, one can't say that Ghostzapper ran a handful of races solely because he was fast. He was fragile, too. So was Ruffian, unfortunately

[kmlarkin]

Good horses can come from what is considered plausible stock. Dr. Fager is a perfect example of that. His Dam, Aspidistra, had bad knees and never won a race, though she was a good producer. His sire Rough'N Tumble had a bad foot. It's the degree in which these types of chances are taken that dictates the soundness of the breed as a whole. Back in the glory days 20's-50's you may have had a good one with marginal confirmation that contributed to his/her unsoundness. More than 60% of the time these horses were not bred on because of those issues. That is why I suggested that the commercial breeding business is ruining the breed. The degree in which this type of thing is overlooked is much higher than it was several decades ago.

[kmlarkin]

Today and for the last several decades breeding for early maturity is standard. They breed for early maturity, so a horse can be at its peak during its three year old campaign, for a hopeful run at the TC. This again contributes to the overall weakening of the breed and why so much is taken out of the horse after the TC series. Of course, that early maturity is passed on immediately when that horse goes to stud the beginning of the next year. Because unless it's a gelding, the lure of big money in the breeding shed is far more compelling than actually being a sportsman and continuing to run the horse.

[Heidilady]

Today and for the last several decades breeding for early maturity is standard. They breed for early maturity, so a horse can be at its peak during its three year old campaign, for a hopeful run at the TC. This again contributes to the overall weakening of the breed and why so much is taken out of the horse after the TC series. Of course, that early maturity is passed on immediately when that horse goes to stud the beginning of the next year. Because unless it's a gelding, the lure of big money in the breeding shed is far more compelling than actually being a sportsman and continuing to run the horse.

Agreed. They don't put enough importance on horses that perform at the highest levels at ages 4 or 5, nevermind beyond. The buck stops at 3 really for so many stud farms. I mean think about it, Tiznow won the Breeders Cup Classic twice, and back to back, and I really don't feel he gets nearly the respect he deserves as a racehorse, much less as a stallion.

I felt personally that Ghostzapper's 4 race season was a pathetic contribution to the sport however good those races were so I had issues giving him HOY for that reason but it's not like Smarty was the soundest animal out there either. I was just speculating why his sesamoids couldn't take it (I've heard that from some of the tv folks but I think they're in denial and Frankel maybe too because that talent's just so magnetic) but it's true, he's actually what I would call a hazard to the breed. Think about it, he could potentially produce horses as brilliant as he was with the weakness that he had and they'll just proliferate--the ones that don't break down will possibly have amongst them some high caliber horses and those will breed and it'll just be so tempting because they want that talent and don't care about the damage they're doing. They can't walk away from it. They see $$$. Say Ruffian had survived and been sent to the shed--here's a $64,000 question. Would you (general "you") have advocated breeding Ruffian? If so, breed her to whom? Would you have walked away from breeding her if she were your mare?