Phalaris & Breakdowns here are the facts

[PHAR LAP]

All the horses I mentioned ran on dirt, dirt sprints I believe.

I also noticed when doing my search looking at horses that are 10 to 20 years old have Phalaris five generations or more back. Not exactly a cause for unsoundness when it is that far back.

Any horse that far back isn't the cause for anything, even producing a good horse. you would have to look closer up, say first three generations for a pattern.

[louis finochio]

When you search for those Phalaris sire line individuals, it covers a broad spectrum.

Those descendants of Phalaris are broken down in the 3 & 4 and 5th generations.

The foundation stallions from the Phalaris would be Native Dancer, Northern Dancer, Bold Ruler, Nasrullah, Raise a Native, and Turn -to.

When you find 3X4 in a TB pedigree to Northern Dancer, it would be called the Northern Dancer branch of Phalaris.

[PHAR LAP]

OK I see what you are saying, but what does NP stand for or did you mean to say ND?

It still doesn't prove anything as all these lines are still too far back to really matter.

I would be more concerned about sires more up front like Mr. Prospector, In Reality and Seattle Slew that tend to produce poor conformation.

[geowarrior]

I think Sam hit the nail on the head. However many possible contributing factors to unsoundness I might be able to think of, Sam can think of more, as can most of you. That's what would make the experiment so difficult as one would have to make decisions about definitions, and then eliminate all factors that are not relevant to the testing of the hypothesis. I'm a scientist, but not of the statistical type, but I've done some big projects, and I absolutely blanche when I try to think what it would take to do this one properly.

Listing this horse and that horse anecdotally is not the way to go, though, I do know that.

[PHAR LAP]

Geowarrior I too agree that it takes many factors to cause a horse to be "unsound" I do not think too many here are disputing that fact. I was just pointing out how rediculous it was in saying ONE sire line is the cause for all unsoundness and gave examples (which I am sure there are hundreds more) showing horses with Phalaris lines that were very sound.

I then said if one is going to blame any sire line for unsoundness it wouldn't be Phalaris but other sires closer up. I would be more incline to say it is the training methods, drug masking, and too many race days with no time off that would be the culprit. Conformation wouldn't even be on top of my list as I have seen too many a great horse overcome his conformation flaws to win many races. these horses would just require more time off when sore and proper care, thats all.

Still do not know what NP means?

[Sam]

Still do not know what NP means?

Non-Phalaris. Kind of self-explanatory when "P" means "Phalaris" and you had no problem picking that up.

[Sheikh]

It's highly unlikely anyone here will be able to prove the argument one way or the other. However,surely it is worth considering how many phalaris lines are present in the thoroughbreds pedigree these days when weighing up the different reasons being offered as to why the population are less sound then they used to be.

[zinn21]

Pinning unsoundness strictly on pedigree is like saying I absolutely know how to breed a Stakes horse.

[Sheikh]

Yes, but it's worth considering as a contributory factor.

[Sheikh]

Yes, but it's worth considering as a contributory factor.

[LaTroienne]

Perhaps the number of injuries, Phalaris lines or no, will decrease with polytrack.

[Shammy Davis]

From EQUINE GENETICS & SELECTIONS PROCEDURES: pg 329(CONFORMATION)

"Due to limited research in the field of equine genetics, it is not possible to classify all conformation abnormalities as either inherited or environmental. Whether a physical defect is inborn (congential) or apparent sometime after birth (acquired), it could be the result of environmental and/or genetic factors. "