OMG... Plecher has done something that is pure genius

[bdw0617]

For all those bemoaning the quality of California racing, I point to Hystericalady. Hasn't been able to win in CA this year, but has shipped to win the Humana Distaff and the Molly Pitcher, and will probably be one of the favorites for the Beldame next weekend. And she got outfinished in CA twice by Nashoba's Key and once by Balance. Yeah, those two fillies can't run with worth a lick, either.

FIRST of all, when reffering to a weak colony, one is generally pointing towards the DIRT MALES. I've actually been casted out because I think the West Side is the best side when it comes to the T'Breds of the female variety.

However...... let's take your arguement for a second. the problem you have is that you have 3 surfaces and only 2 at a time. There is nothing in Hysterlady's pedigree that suggest she would take to poly and she hasn't. She's a dirt mare. She's damn near untouchable on dirt, to the point where she is my fav, and has been for about 3 months going into the distaff.. and I've been talked bad about because of that.. but you can't beat her on dirt at least this year. she even beat the boys earlier this year

Secondly, back to the boys. I have two words for you: Student Council. And what makes it worse, is that I actually HAD HIM!!!! meaning, I actually thought he was the best horse in the race. In Socal, there isn't much difference between Allowence and grade 1.

[bdw0617]

The point is that Cali's best dirt horses may not like the new surfaces, and as such, have had poor seasons and won't be sent to Monmouth to compete. On the flip side, the so-so dirt horses that have taken to the new surfaces (like In Summation, Student Council, and AP Xcellent) will be sent to Monmouth and will get their heads handed to them.

There are exceptions when a good horse will run on anything (Asi Siempre, as an example). But, how many of them are there?

Student Council would have won the Pac Classic if they ran on graham crackers. He was the best horse in the race.. when are you guys going to realize that? Take your west coast blinders off!! right now the horse that broke the track record last time out that beat SC by what.. a length is 3 to 1 in the mass cap, yet SC goes off at 25 to 1 and every horse that finished in front of him this year would hvae killed the Pac Classic.

[Foggytrip]

She hasnt ran nearly as well since the snake charmer went on watch

[bdw0617]

who is "she"? The only 2 "she'" trained by King Cobra I can think of are Irish Smoke and Lady of Venice, neither of which are mentioned here

Hysterialady= Jerry Holldendorer
pussycat doll= BAffert
Balance= Pletcher.. I think
Nashoba's Key=Carla Gaines

[FOS]

hi bdw0617...hi Rok...hi all

Green Monkey: HOLLYWOOD.. HERE I COME!!!

That's right folks... TGM will be making his next start if not starts against the piss poor fields that is the SoCal racing colony. ...

Maybe there is what you refer to as a "piss poor" field in SoCal, occasionally...but, arguably that's true just about everywhere, don't you think? What about the G1-Hopeful at Saratoga? Four starters...some might think that's "piss poor".

In general, I would describe SoCal racing as extremely competitive, at the very least.

As for Maiden Special Weight races, I recall (toward the end of the Del Mar meet) an open (not restricted to Cal-breds) 2-year-old MSW filly race (that was shown on TVG) that carried a $53,000 purse and included (among its starters) an Elusive Quality, a Mineshaft, a Dynaformer, a Pulpit, a Vindication, a Hennessy, a Quiet American etc etc. Hardly "piss poor".

As for the SoCal racing surfaces...I recall the polytrack at Del Mar being described recently, by DRF handicapper Steve Davidowitz, as seemingly two different racetracks. He described the track as being relatively fast, and tighter etc in the cool of the morning...but, slower and looser/deeper in the afternoon. Plus he (and others) have indicated that the track apparently has a bias (on the inside) that plays against the speed.

Davidowitz referred to a horse that he had been following (at Del Mar), as working 7 furlongs in 1:22 (in the AM)...and that same horse having difficulty running 1:25 in the afternoon.

Seems to me that what I've been hearing (in general) re the Cushion Track at Hollywood Park is quite positive.

As for the polytrack at Del Mar...it seems that just about everyone I've spoken with (and/or heard comment from) seems to have a caveat connected to whatever they say about the new Del Mar surface. That said...I can't recall hearing even one trainer and/or owner say (re poly at Del Mar) 'I love it' or 'it's great'. Among the many caveats I've heard (re the Del Mar poly) are 'hopefully they'll figure it out' or 'it definitely needs some tweaking' or 'it's slow on the inside' or 'let's wait and see what it's like next year'.'

As for The Green Monkey...he's probably being sent to Cal based on the premise that the SoCal artificial surfaces might be easier for him to train over. Why not? After all (if we're to believe the reports) he's apparently had his physical issues.

Whether the SoCal artificial surfaces favor some horses or not, or play differently than previous surfaces and/or are the genesis of other concerns/issues/arguments/opinions...whatever; one thing that many trainers/owners seem to be in agreement on, is that the SoCal artificial surfaces seem to take less of a toll on the horses. That might benefit The Green Monkey. Furthermore...I'm not so sure that TGM is much more than a distraction to Pletcher and his first string of runners.

At this point, I ask...why would Pletcher even want TGM in the barn? He has genuine stars (and potential stars) to focus on...and arguably The Green Monkey has become little more than a distraction...don't ya think?

Bottom line...why not send the infection known as TGM out to California? Maybe the sun and warm weather will help clear it up.

Best.

Respectfully

[bdw0617]

hi bdw0617...hi Rok...hi all

Green Monkey: HOLLYWOOD.. HERE I COME!!!

That's right folks... TGM will be making his next start if not starts against the piss poor fields that is the SoCal racing colony. ...

Maybe there is what you refer to as a "piss poor" field in SoCal, occasionally...but, arguably that's true just about everywhere, don't you think? What about the G1-Hopeful at Saratoga? Four starters...some might think that's "piss poor".

In general, I would describe SoCal racing as extremely competitive, at the very least.

As for Maiden Special Weight races, I recall (toward the end of the Del Mar meet) an open (not restricted to Cal-breds) 2-year-old MSW filly race (that was shown on TVG) that carried a $53,000 purse and included (among its starters) an Elusive Quality, a Mineshaft, a Dynaformer, a Pulpit, a Vindication, a Hennessy, a Quiet American etc etc. Hardly "piss poor".

As for the SoCal racing surfaces...I recall the polytrack at Del Mar being described recently, by DRF handicapper Steve Davidowitz, as seemingly two different racetracks. He described the track as being relatively fast, and tighter etc in the cool of the morning...but, slower and looser/deeper in the afternoon. Plus he (and others) have indicated that the track apparently has a bias (on the inside) that plays against the speed.

Davidowitz referred to a horse that he had been following (at Del Mar), as working 7 furlongs in 1:22 (in the AM)...and that same horse having difficulty running 1:25 in the afternoon.

Seems to me that what I've been hearing (in general) re the Cushion Track at Hollywood Park is quite positive.

As for the polytrack at Del Mar...it seems that just about everyone I've spoken with (and/or heard comment from) seems to have a caveat connected to whatever they say about the new Del Mar surface. That said...I can't recall hearing even one trainer and/or owner say (re poly at Del Mar) 'I love it' or 'it's great'. Among the many caveats I've heard (re the Del Mar poly) are 'hopefully they'll figure it out' or 'it definitely needs some tweaking' or 'it's slow on the inside' or 'let's wait and see what it's like next year'.'

As for The Green Monkey...he's probably being sent to Cal based on the premise that the SoCal artificial surfaces might be easier for him to train over. Why not? After all (if we're to believe the reports) he's apparently had his physical issues.

Whether the SoCal artificial surfaces favor some horses or not, or play differently than previous surfaces and/or are the genesis of other concerns/issues/arguments/opinions...whatever; one thing that many trainers/owners seem to be in agreement on, is that the SoCal artificial surfaces seem to take less of a toll on the horses. That might benefit The Green Monkey. Furthermore...I'm not so sure that TGM is much more than a distraction to Pletcher and his first string of runners.

At this point, I ask...why would Pletcher even want TGM in the barn? He has genuine stars (and potential stars) to focus on...and arguably The Green Monkey has become little more than a distraction...don't ya think?

Bottom line...why not send the infection known as TGM out to California? Maybe the sun and warm weather will help clear it up.

Best.

Respectfully

hat about the G1-Hopeful at Saratoga? Four starters...some might think that's "piss poor".

the number of starters have nothing to do with the quality of the field. Any starter in the hopeful would have won the Del mar Furirity.

eral, I would describe SoCal racing as extremely competitive, at the very least.

compeitive and good are two different things. Watch Mountineer on friday night. Every last race is "competitive'..lol, until you throw a Churchill/Ellis/NY Shipper in there.

yes, and you are mistaken me.. i lOVE socal racing. I think SoCal should be the mecca of US horse racing. I really honestly do. But it doesn't change the fact that right now, it can't do anything right to attract the high end owners and keep them here. Why in the hell is a 3YO taht's stabled at Santa Anita traveling 3000 miles to race in a derby prep that's tougher and offers the same amount of money damn near?

As for Maiden Special Weight races, I recall (toward the end of the Del Mar meet) an open (not restricted to Cal-breds) 2-year-old MSW filly race (that was shown on TVG) that carried a $53,000 purse and included (among its starters) an Elusive Quality, a Mineshaft, a Dynaformer, a Pulpit, a Vindication, a Hennessy, a Quiet American etc etc. Hardly "piss poor".

you can't pick and choose when to use bloodlines as an arguing point. IN eveyr other thread "bloodines mean nothing". now it counts for something when a point wants to be proven.

Let's look at this. Ever since Santa Anita closed, show me, outside of the Ron Ellis filly, forgot her name... she came in 2nd in a graded stakes the day of 10 million dollar pick 6, that had an eye popping maiden performance that made you say "damn.. this can turn into something here".. I watch SoCal racing every day and I can't. Look at the finalt imes. "Race horse time" is nothing set in stone, but a good horse runs in a certain amount of time. The fav in the Del Mar Furirity, not the winner, won his maiden 6F in 1:13 and 4. That speaks for itself

As for the SoCal racing surfaces...I recall the polytrack at Del Mar being described recently, by DRF handicapper Steve Davidowitz, as seemingly two different racetracks.

no arguement here

Davidowitz referred to a horse that he had been following (at Del Mar), as working 7 furlongs in 1:22 (in the AM)...and that same horse having difficulty running 1:25 in the afternoon.

Baffert Ran Midnight Lute in 1:22 then shipped him all the way to Saratoga when there was a Grade 2 at Del Mar the same week

eems to me that what I've been hearing (in general) re the Cushion Track at Hollywood Park is quite positive.

I love it. I can't tell the difference.

I can tell you this.. and it may be silly.. the two Synthetics I have an issue with, look "different" then the rest. arlington, Presque and Hollywood all look something resembling dirt, lol.. Del Mar litearly looks like play-do that's been left out too long.

As for The Green Monkey...he's probably being sent to Cal based on the premise that the SoCal artificial surfaces might be easier for him to train over. Why not? After all (if we're to believe the reports) he's apparently had his physical issues.

I still think that he's going for the charmon soft fields to get the highest graded stakes possible. Plus, I can't think of any Storm Cat's off the top of my head that are just in love with the poly. If you can please help me out.

If Pletcher was REAlLY looking out for the best interest of the HORSE, he's ship TGM to Florida and let him run at Calder. He's a Florida Bred.

[Rokeby Forever]

I beg to differ that Pletcher's barn is "full of stars." I saw a lot of stakes at Saratoga in which he had nothing to enter.

How loaded is that barn with two year olds? Plenty of maidens....

[FOS]

hi bdw0617

If SoCal racing is so "piss poor" (your words) I am confident that New York owners would be shipping there (by the plane load) to steal the easy money.

That's largely not the case though. As you know (for example), Ahmed Zayat actually shipped west to east, sending his $4.6mil Maimonides from Del Mar to Saratoga. Word is, Zayat had an issue with the Del Mar polytrack, but fact is it was in New York (after breaking his maiden at Saratoga) that Zayat's Maimonides got his a*s handed to him in the Hopeful...a 4 horse field (hmmm). Reportedly Maimonides' (and another of Zayat's runners) shins have become problematic (if you will), as a result of training and racing at Saratoga. So much (at least for now) for Zayat's decision to travel east.

The way I see it, a main difference (between New York and SoCal racing) is the track surfaces...NOT so much the quality of horses. If someone had a TOP horse, and there was nothing in the book for them in SoCal, they might (understandably) ship elsewhere; the same could be said for a New York owner with a TOP horse. As for the quality of horses though (in general), we could argue til the cows come home where the better ones are, and why they might be where they are.

As for the race times run at Del Mar. I too have to get used to it, although it's not so easy. A NTR (for 6 furlongs) at Del Mar in 1:11 (and a couple hundreths) is something that's not so easy (for me anyway) to get used to. Reality is though, that the Del Mar polytrack was slow slow slow in the afternoon, and even slower slower slower on the inside. That's the way it was...hmmm.

Cushion track (at Hollywood Park) seems to be (and has been) a whole lot more consistent, both AM and PM (and certainly faster than Del Mar was in the PM)...and (for what it's worth) actually has the brownish look of dirt (unlike the vanilla poly-look at Del Mar).

Bottom line...when (especially regarding open racing) there are BIG dollars on the line (whether for maiden races, allowance races or stakes races), it's never easy (okay rarely). The purses in SoCal are quite large (you might agree) in general, certainly in relation to the rest of the country. On the flip side, the purses in New York (excluding Finger Lakes of course) are some of the the east coast's largest (in general). That said...if you want to find the best horses/toughest competition...following the money (for starters) is usually dependable...and, of course look at the stakes schedule.

Respectfully bdw0617, no one (or racetrack, or coast...east or west) has a monopoly on the best horses. Just follow the money (east coast, west coast, wherever) and the stakes book of course...and you'll find the big dogs.

As for the track surfaces...I would submit (based on what I've heard) that cushion track (at least at Hollywood Park where it's been in use for approx a year) seems to be getting high marks (in general). Santa Anita chose Cushion track over polytrack, and we'll start hearing comments about the SA surface soon, I'm sure.

I am confident, bdw0617, that if the HUGE SoCal purses (and stakes races) were so easy to win, an abundance of east coasters (among others) would head west.

It ain't easy.

Best.

Respectfully

[FOS]

hi Rok

I beg to differ that Pletcher's barn is "full of stars."

You didn't see me write "that Pletcher's barn is full of stars", those were the words of my friend Rok. What I wrote was that "He (Pletcher) has genuine stars (and potential stars) to focus on...and arguably The Green Monkey has become little more than a distraction...don't ya think?"

Rok, to my way of thinking Pletcher does have stars and potential stars in his barn. You might see it differently, and I appreciate your thoughts/opinions always; but (at least from my perspective), seems that "The Green Monkey has become little more than a distraction..." for Pletcher.

If Pletcher wanted to keep him in the barn, I'm confident he'd be staying there. Apparently, though, he doesn't want him; and might actually have recommended sending the colt to SoCal, where the all-weather surfaces might be easier/kinder on him physically (at least to some extent).

Best.

Respectfully

[Rokeby Forever]

Hiya FOS,

I did paraphrase...my apologies.

The Pletcher barn is loaded with potential stars and stars when it is stocked with lots of young talent. To this point, I think you would agree, his juvenile stock has been disappointing - to say the least. Mr Pletcher went 3-45 with juveniles at Saratoga - that is historically the strength of the barn.

Who is left from the star roster? Any Given Saturday, English Channel, Octave, Lawyer Ron, and ??? Rags is gone, Scat Daddy is gone, Cowtown Cat has been a disappointment, Circular Quay is a disappointment, Sunriver might pan out, Harlington is in therapy, several high, high priced stock has not even run (nor is it on the worktab)....for a barn that always seems loaded, the talent seems to be pretty thin right now. That might explain why Pletcher stock went only 12 for 117 at Saratoga and is currently 1 for 23 at Belmont. In my mind, a small percentage of the barn is carrying it right now.

I feel sorry for Mr Pletcher that the highest priced two year old of all time (and highest priced horse of all time, if the reported price is true) is a "distraction." If that is true, 180 out of the 200 two year olds he starts out with every year must be a "distraction." How does the poor man sleep?

Best, as always.

[Easy Goer]

THere's very little certainty in pedigree reading in general.

Now you want to say that so and so isnt bred for poly? And they've been running on poly for all of what 2 years?

Getting a little carried away are we?

[Foggytrip]

She is Asi Siempre. I was speaking to Roke

[bdw0617]

I'll give him panty raid.. I like panty raid.. but that's not the point of the thread. the point of the thread is that TGM will be racing in Socal

say he goes out there and breaks his maiden by 5.... what will everyone say then? The SoCal colony is weak? That he needed the poly? that he needed a race?

[Rokeby Forever]

I'll give him panty raid.. I like panty raid.. but that's not the point of the thread. the point of the thread is that TGM will be racing in Socal

say he goes out there and breaks his maiden by 5.... what will everyone say then? The SoCal colony is weak? That he needed the poly? that he needed a race?

The new tracks, if anything, are kind to turf oriented horses. TGM is anything but. Look....Pletcher revved him up to win that first race and the horse gave him nothing. Plenty of Forestry offspring run in claimers. TGM just ain't much. Period, dot, end.

Pletcher managed to bury Ravel on the West Coast. Maybe he's hoping lightning will strike twice.

[Cree]

I don't think Rivers Prayer is piss poor either.