Chantal sutherland in trouble
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jellac wrote:There is another racetrack 'professional' involved here that gets no mention from any of you? Am I so out of date that the 'valet' is no longer a functionary of the jockey's dressing room?
This is true for the guys, or had she already used it and it was dirty, but there are only male valets at Woodbine and they aren't allowed in the women's area, nor do the women go into the midst of the guys part where the cleaning and set up is often done. The valet has often more than one rider to set up for, and does it all on one table. Chantal should have brought her new whip from her side. The valet is off the hook in this case. Also, the whip often doesn't go to the valet and he certainly doesn't care it out to saddle.
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LittleCurrent
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jellac wrote:There is another racetrack 'professional' involved here that gets no mention from any of you? Am I so out of date that the 'valet' is no longer a functionary of the jockey's dressing room?
Doesn't a jockey's valet put together the silks, goggles, helmet, safety vest, boots, etc. - in other words the equipment (save the saddle, saddle cloth, bit, bridle, girth and - if chosen, the blinkers - which come from the trainer) for each jockey's race and have those clean, sorted out by race and ready to go prior to the races. It seems to me that the whip would be an important part of a jockey's 'quip' and it falls to their valet to have the appropriate one ready with the other equipment required for any given race.
While I don't disagree that Chantal should have known better and have taken care to make sure she had the right sort of whip - without one on hand where is she going to get it? The gate crew is not in the busines of re-equipping jockeys who arrive there ill prepared to do their job. The owner is being unnecessarily and ridiculously burdened by a mistake that is squarely the responsibility of the jockey and the jockey's valet alone.
I agree with you completely, Jellac. It seems to me that the ball was dropped all the way around her using the wrong whip. When they went to the new whip, why didn't they just collect all the old whips from the track, jocks room, outriders, gate crew, everybody turns them in, and accidently using an old whip is not likely to happen? That doesn't seem that hard to me, surely harder things have been done. Seems like a sloppy way to run a track, but I'm sure the track puts the blame on the jock. Ultimately it was Chantal who used the wrong whip, but whoever made the rule in the first place should have followed up and made sure all old whips were replaced imo. Shame now the owner is going to suffer, that seems completely wrong.
LittleCurrent wrote:I agree with you completely, Jellac. It seems to me that the ball was dropped all the way around her using the wrong whip. When they went to the new whip, why didn't they just collect all the old whips from the track, jocks room, outriders, gate crew, everybody turns them in, and accidently using an old whip is not likely to happen? That doesn't seem that hard to me, surely harder things have been done. Seems like a sloppy way to run a track, but I'm sure the track puts the blame on the jock. Ultimately it was Chantal who used the wrong whip, but whoever made the rule in the first place should have followed up and made sure all old whips were replaced imo. Shame now the owner is going to suffer, that seems completely wrong.
Are you nuts!!!!??
No offense, but we cherish our whips We custom make them or have someone else and pay minimum of $50 for whips. Each one is different in flex, feel and color. They belong to the rider and are no more issued by the track than underwear. They are still legal in the morning and on farms. It is the rider's responsibility to not have something illegal in the room, not the tracks.
This is like a swimmer accidentally racing in his training suit if it was illegal for races. (I know nothing about swimming, it is just an example. )
madelyn wrote:I agree 100% with jellac - would rather see the result hold for the horse and the owner, but the jockey fined twice the jock's earnings for the win.
When I asked someone who knows more about the rules of racing than I, they said it was a hundred percent certainty that the horse would be disqualified. They had no choice. It was not a decision to punish her, but following the rules just like carrying the wrong weight.
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LittleCurrent
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Fair Play wrote:LittleCurrent wrote:I agree with you completely, Jellac. It seems to me that the ball was dropped all the way around her using the wrong whip. When they went to the new whip, why didn't they just collect all the old whips from the track, jocks room, outriders, gate crew, everybody turns them in, and accidently using an old whip is not likely to happen? That doesn't seem that hard to me, surely harder things have been done. Seems like a sloppy way to run a track, but I'm sure the track puts the blame on the jock. Ultimately it was Chantal who used the wrong whip, but whoever made the rule in the first place should have followed up and made sure all old whips were replaced imo. Shame now the owner is going to suffer, that seems completely wrong.
Are you nuts!!!!??
This is like a swimmer accidentally racing in his training suit if it was illegal for races. (I know nothing about swimming, it is just an example. )
FairPlay, I sincerely didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. Furtherest thing from my mind. My mind always seems to jump to the surest, blanket approach to solving a problem, not always the most practical. Like I did state earlier, ultimately she's responsible for the whip in her hand. She had opportunity to do so, she was aware of the change, but she did use the old whip. My apologies to you and anyone else offended.
LittleCurrent wrote:FairPlay, I sincerely didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. Furtherest thing from my mind. My mind always seems to jump to the surest, blanket approach to solving a problem, not always the most practical. Like I did state earlier, ultimately she's responsible for the whip in her hand. She had opportunity to do so, she was aware of the change, but she did use the old whip. My apologies to you and anyone else offended.
Not at all! I used the winkie smilie as I am not offended. I just have a warped sense of humor.
I was just trying to explain that the track has no idea what is in that room. I guess the valets and clerk of scales and color guy has some clue, but only the rider picks up the stick and walks to the paddock. And I was trying to convey the danger of anyone taking a rider's stash of whips. Some own a collection. A jockey would flip if someone touched his/her stuff. It is like a violin bow, tennis racket, chef's knives, you get the picture. Actually, that might be a better analogy. What she did would be like Tiger using an illegal driver and winning a tournament.
Fairplay - Thanks for clarifying the situation at Woodbine. One of the trials and tribulations of being the only one of your gender involved in something is that 'separate but equal is seldom entirely equal' - I can see the problem if Chantal is the only female jockey and dressing/preparing apart from others with regular valets in attendance.
I also went on the web and looked into the information that these whips being so highly individualized (I knew first hand that a well made crop/bat or whip can be very expensive but didn't know that jockeys' might have a selection of whips from which to choose depending upon the horse they were riding/their responsiveness, etc.) and found this ad language for a 'custom jockey whip' purveyor in the heart of the bluegrass country (note the price is listed as 'average' and in one similar such ad a custom made whip was advertised as costing "from $35 up to $600.00":
(From an online advertisement - name and phone number of merchant is 'X'd" out) -
[/quote]"Average Price:$69 —— XXXXXXX's Custom Jockey Whips are made by hand in the heart of racing country, Kentucky. Each whip is made to your exact specifications and there are myriads of colors to choose from. Your name is also labeled on each whip to make sure everyone knows who its owner is. This whip will last you a lifetime! Fiberglass rod tapers from 1/4" to 1/8". Please call if you do not see your color listed or if you would like to create an option not listed on our website.[/quote]
As for Borel being "ignorant" I can't comment one way or another as it means someone utterly without knowlege and I don't think that really is an appropriate assessment of Calvin Borel. He is not an educated - or at least at one time - even literate individual but to say he is without 'knowlege' of how to ride would be a big mistake I think. It might be instructive to go look at his 'hand ride' of Rachel Alexandra in the Oaks - where she galloped off to win by a 19 plus or minus length win over her "sorority sisters" of this country's top 3YO fillies AND HE NEVER LAYS A HAND ON HER. But wait there's more: more amazingly HE NEVER SO MUCH AS SHAKES THE BIT IN HER MOUTH. Then look at her in the Preakness finish, where she is well ahead with enough momentum to hold off the fast closing MINE THIS BIRD to win by a length or so but he taps her a bit to keep her to the task as she is tiring in the final steps of that stretch run; finally watch again this past Saturday's race. It was the hardest pressed this filly - or any horse for that matter - could be: she ran against the best boys of her crop and older horses. In doing so there was plenty of potent early speed that was supposed to 'test her'. Instead she set very fast fractions on the front in the early going - making the so-called early speed 'run to her' strength and then in the stretch going found enough reserves way down deep to prevail against the late hard chargers of equally good quality for their type of runner. Her final quarter in that ultimate 'test' was as fast/or nearly so as her first! No horse does that 'easily' and neither did R.A. To my mind Borel has ridden this filly quite expertly in her last four outs that I've observed. He's given her the urging in keeping with her level of exhaustion/freshness vs. the strengths of the competion and the pace of the race as it unfolded. He's remained calm and confident of his filly's abilities but did not hesitate to press her - i.e. to "urge her" to tap into what really makes this filly so very a special racehorse regardless of her gender in a race that demanded she "be all in" as much as any horse in history has been asked to do. I think it was one for the record books and I do not fault him at all for whipping her on. He wasn't beating a 'dead horse' or a tiring horse with nothing left in the tank - he was urging her to ignor her screaming lungs and tiring muscles so she would not slow down a step and lose her momentum - momentum she'd need to outfinish the one closer still fresh enough to challenge her. This past Saturday R.A. was asked quite specificly by her jockey to show everyone just how truly special she is and she gave it to him when asked in those final strides of the stretch. She did not come bouncing back to the Winner's Circle ready to do another mile or so - she was TIRED and should have been after that performance, but her jockey would have done her a great disservice if he'd not asked her to stay engaged and to give it every ounce she had left coming down that stretch.
I also went on the web and looked into the information that these whips being so highly individualized (I knew first hand that a well made crop/bat or whip can be very expensive but didn't know that jockeys' might have a selection of whips from which to choose depending upon the horse they were riding/their responsiveness, etc.) and found this ad language for a 'custom jockey whip' purveyor in the heart of the bluegrass country (note the price is listed as 'average' and in one similar such ad a custom made whip was advertised as costing "from $35 up to $600.00":
(From an online advertisement - name and phone number of merchant is 'X'd" out) -
[/quote]"Average Price:$69 —— XXXXXXX's Custom Jockey Whips are made by hand in the heart of racing country, Kentucky. Each whip is made to your exact specifications and there are myriads of colors to choose from. Your name is also labeled on each whip to make sure everyone knows who its owner is. This whip will last you a lifetime! Fiberglass rod tapers from 1/4" to 1/8". Please call if you do not see your color listed or if you would like to create an option not listed on our website.[/quote]
As for Borel being "ignorant" I can't comment one way or another as it means someone utterly without knowlege and I don't think that really is an appropriate assessment of Calvin Borel. He is not an educated - or at least at one time - even literate individual but to say he is without 'knowlege' of how to ride would be a big mistake I think. It might be instructive to go look at his 'hand ride' of Rachel Alexandra in the Oaks - where she galloped off to win by a 19 plus or minus length win over her "sorority sisters" of this country's top 3YO fillies AND HE NEVER LAYS A HAND ON HER. But wait there's more: more amazingly HE NEVER SO MUCH AS SHAKES THE BIT IN HER MOUTH. Then look at her in the Preakness finish, where she is well ahead with enough momentum to hold off the fast closing MINE THIS BIRD to win by a length or so but he taps her a bit to keep her to the task as she is tiring in the final steps of that stretch run; finally watch again this past Saturday's race. It was the hardest pressed this filly - or any horse for that matter - could be: she ran against the best boys of her crop and older horses. In doing so there was plenty of potent early speed that was supposed to 'test her'. Instead she set very fast fractions on the front in the early going - making the so-called early speed 'run to her' strength and then in the stretch going found enough reserves way down deep to prevail against the late hard chargers of equally good quality for their type of runner. Her final quarter in that ultimate 'test' was as fast/or nearly so as her first! No horse does that 'easily' and neither did R.A. To my mind Borel has ridden this filly quite expertly in her last four outs that I've observed. He's given her the urging in keeping with her level of exhaustion/freshness vs. the strengths of the competion and the pace of the race as it unfolded. He's remained calm and confident of his filly's abilities but did not hesitate to press her - i.e. to "urge her" to tap into what really makes this filly so very a special racehorse regardless of her gender in a race that demanded she "be all in" as much as any horse in history has been asked to do. I think it was one for the record books and I do not fault him at all for whipping her on. He wasn't beating a 'dead horse' or a tiring horse with nothing left in the tank - he was urging her to ignor her screaming lungs and tiring muscles so she would not slow down a step and lose her momentum - momentum she'd need to outfinish the one closer still fresh enough to challenge her. This past Saturday R.A. was asked quite specificly by her jockey to show everyone just how truly special she is and she gave it to him when asked in those final strides of the stretch. She did not come bouncing back to the Winner's Circle ready to do another mile or so - she was TIRED and should have been after that performance, but her jockey would have done her a great disservice if he'd not asked her to stay engaged and to give it every ounce she had left coming down that stretch.
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Entry Blank
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First off with regard to the new whip rules , it is the racing commission and clerk of scales job to make sure that the correct whips leave the jocks room. It is also Chantals valets job to make sure she has the correct whip available to her , as someone stated she rides alot of horses and most likely she isnt thinking about if she has the correct whip but about the race and her horse. She also suffered more than just a 200$ fine she also lost her amount of purse money , just like when a trainer gets a bad test the owner suffers and so does the jock and more people than just that . I would venture to say that had she ran last in the race with the wrong whip not much would have been said by anyone.
The new whips that are being mandated are filled with nerf material "pillow popper" as they are called are like swatting a child with a wet noodle , alot of threat but not much else. They are heavy at the end and you dont get the same result when you swing and make contact like you did with the old whips. I will make a prediction that there is going to be public outcry at the amount of force and multiple swats that jocks are going to take at horses with the new whips trying to get the same reaction from a horse that they used to from the old whips with less swats.
The new whips that are being mandated are filled with nerf material "pillow popper" as they are called are like swatting a child with a wet noodle , alot of threat but not much else. They are heavy at the end and you dont get the same result when you swing and make contact like you did with the old whips. I will make a prediction that there is going to be public outcry at the amount of force and multiple swats that jocks are going to take at horses with the new whips trying to get the same reaction from a horse that they used to from the old whips with less swats.
Entry Blank wrote:The new whips that are being mandated are filled with nerf material "pillow popper" as they are called are like swatting a child with a wet noodle , alot of threat but not much else. They are heavy at the end and you dont get the same result when you swing and make contact like you did with the old whips. I will make a prediction that there is going to be public outcry at the amount of force and multiple swats that jocks are going to take at horses with the new whips trying to get the same reaction from a horse that they used to from the old whips with less swats.
I am curious to see one as I am not at the track anymore. With the new rules of how many times you can hit, how many times in a row, and how many strides between hits, it will be very hard for the journeymen to change so much. I suspect there will be a few more fines yet.
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Sock Monkey
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Jellac, I completely agree with your assessment of Borel's ride on RA.
Sutherland is not the only female jockey at Woodbine. And, the valet is her employee so final responsibility is hers. More importantly, the rider's whip goes to the paddock in the rider's hands. Even if she was preoccupied with thinking of the race and her mount, she had plenty of time to realize she was carrying the wrong stick. So, the blame lies squarely on her shoulders.
However, the reason the owners suffer is that the horse won illegally. No different than if they had found the rider to be carrying a machine. Sutherland's horse won with what was probably an unfair advantage. Not the owner's fault, but if the officials left that horse the winner, they would be cheating both the rest of the field and the betting public.
Karen, the Candadian whip rules do not apply to the NV circuit, nor anywhere in the US.
There can be a lot of difference between whips and each has it's own balance and feel. Everyone has their own preference. Even "otc" whips are expensive, but custom work is quite expensive and whips are owned by the rider - not the track nor the trainer. Never mess with a rider's whip.
Sutherland is not the only female jockey at Woodbine. And, the valet is her employee so final responsibility is hers. More importantly, the rider's whip goes to the paddock in the rider's hands. Even if she was preoccupied with thinking of the race and her mount, she had plenty of time to realize she was carrying the wrong stick. So, the blame lies squarely on her shoulders.
However, the reason the owners suffer is that the horse won illegally. No different than if they had found the rider to be carrying a machine. Sutherland's horse won with what was probably an unfair advantage. Not the owner's fault, but if the officials left that horse the winner, they would be cheating both the rest of the field and the betting public.
Karen, the Candadian whip rules do not apply to the NV circuit, nor anywhere in the US.
There can be a lot of difference between whips and each has it's own balance and feel. Everyone has their own preference. Even "otc" whips are expensive, but custom work is quite expensive and whips are owned by the rider - not the track nor the trainer. Never mess with a rider's whip.
OK, this is a bit off the topic of Chantel's error but is in response to jellac's post on Borel's ride whipping RA to get her to dig down for more when she was tired so bear with me as this is something I've long wondered about.
Why are these horses so tired in the stretch? Why would a young, healthy Thoroughbred be so tired after running pretty fast for like 89 seconds?
And why are they not "worked" or "trained' more than they are in preparation for the races? What is this galloping once week or so, and what is "walking the shedrow" going to do to make a horse fit?
Is it because they're so young that they can't be worked hard enough to get to a level of fitness that would enable them to run hard for a minute and a half without looking like they're about to drop afterward? But the older horses get tired, too, so that can't be it.
And if they were more fit, wouldn't that help curb the injuries, too? I see a lot of horses on TVG who don't even appear to be legged up much less fit runners. People train more for track events than horses do for races; jogging and sprinting almost daily to build up legs and wind.
When I read about, say, Mine That Bird having worked at whatever track and will likely do it again in a week or so I wonder what he's been doing in between, standing in a stall? Why wouldn't he be loping around the track every day for about 30 minutes? And if he did lope around the track for 30 minutes every day, wouldn't he be less likely to be tired at the end of a 90 second race?
Why are these horses so tired in the stretch? Why would a young, healthy Thoroughbred be so tired after running pretty fast for like 89 seconds?
And why are they not "worked" or "trained' more than they are in preparation for the races? What is this galloping once week or so, and what is "walking the shedrow" going to do to make a horse fit?
Is it because they're so young that they can't be worked hard enough to get to a level of fitness that would enable them to run hard for a minute and a half without looking like they're about to drop afterward? But the older horses get tired, too, so that can't be it.
And if they were more fit, wouldn't that help curb the injuries, too? I see a lot of horses on TVG who don't even appear to be legged up much less fit runners. People train more for track events than horses do for races; jogging and sprinting almost daily to build up legs and wind.
When I read about, say, Mine That Bird having worked at whatever track and will likely do it again in a week or so I wonder what he's been doing in between, standing in a stall? Why wouldn't he be loping around the track every day for about 30 minutes? And if he did lope around the track for 30 minutes every day, wouldn't he be less likely to be tired at the end of a 90 second race?
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karenkarenn
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I can only speak for our horse that is in training. To answere your question about [quote]Why are these horses so tired in the stretch? Why would a young, healthy Thoroughbred be so tired after running pretty fast for like 89 seconds?
[quote]-- I hope I got that right....
Just from my stand point, the difference between a workout and a race- the horse has alot of other horses running hard with him or her and he or she has a jock pounding away too. Im sure with the instinct to run with the heard, the horse has to be tired, and there is a audience that commands attention too. Thats got to take energy.
Our trainer works our horse once a week, but shes cantering/galloping at least three days, and walking a few but atleast to keep them from getting soar and a good attitude. Kinda like a change in pase if you will.
Again racing in a race Vs. working out takes mentall and physical energy out of a horse too.
I can only speak for our horse that is in training. To answere your question about [quote]Why are these horses so tired in the stretch? Why would a young, healthy Thoroughbred be so tired after running pretty fast for like 89 seconds?
[quote]-- I hope I got that right....
Just from my stand point, the difference between a workout and a race- the horse has alot of other horses running hard with him or her and he or she has a jock pounding away too. Im sure with the instinct to run with the heard, the horse has to be tired, and there is a audience that commands attention too. Thats got to take energy.
Our trainer works our horse once a week, but shes cantering/galloping at least three days, and walking a few but atleast to keep them from getting soar and a good attitude. Kinda like a change in pase if you will.
Again racing in a race Vs. working out takes mentall and physical energy out of a horse too.