who is better? sea the stars or zarkava

[wangkw]

Mill Reef won 3 key events viz. Derby Stakes, King & Queen Diamond Stakes, The Arc.
Brigadier Gerard won 2 key events viz. 2000 Guineas, King & Queen Diamond Stakes.

On the basis of Quality test...Mill Reef certainly was more glorious.

But compare their career runs the Quantitative index swings the other way :

MR was 14 starts with 12 wins (6 G1) & 2 2nd...pound 1/4 Million
BG was 18 starts with 17 wins (7 or 8 G1) & 1 2nd..US$ 3/4 Million

The 2000 guineas in 1971 was a 6 runner field..I believe BG beat MR by 1&1/4 length.

I would tie them both.

Both MR & BG were highly productive sires...MR's are better on track (Ibn Bey, Reference Point).

[Patuxet]

wangkw wrote: "The 2000 guineas in 1971 was a 6 runner field..I believe BG beat MR by 1&1/4 length."

The winning margin was actually three lengths.

[parlo]

That's right!

Btw: You can find that legendary Guineas-race here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es28rlQXdiI .

[wilf]

Thanks for the vid Parlo! Mill Reef may have been a bit too fresh for the race as he matched strides with the very fast My Swallow and Brigadier Gerard inhaled them. What a generation though with the winner going on to greatness and only an incredible ride by Braulio Baeza at York on Roberto running the big horse off his legs to deny him an unbeatn career. The only other year to compare IMHO was the early 80's when the brilliant El Gran Senor beat Rainbow Quest , Chief Singer and Diesis. Great crops come along so rarely but when they do you can just sense it in the air!!

[bdw0617]

Thanks for the vid Parlo! Mill Reef may have been a bit too fresh for the race as he matched strides with the very fast My Swallow and Brigadier Gerard inhaled them. What a generation though with the winner going on to greatness and only an incredible ride by Braulio Baeza at York on Roberto running the big horse off his legs to deny him an unbeatn career. The only other year to compare IMHO was the early 80's when the brilliant El Gran Senor beat Rainbow Quest , Chief Singer and Diesis. Great crops come along so rarely but when they do you can just sense it in the air!!

Brigadier Gerard is a name you don't hear to often. he was a real race horse.

what wsa the name of that horse that went over there and beat him? american jockey?

[Patuxet]

bdw0617 wrote: "what wsa the name of that horse that went over there and beat him? american jockey?"

Wilf already told us that in the post above.

The race was the Benson & Hedges Gold Cup at York. Brigadier Gerard came second. Roberto had won the Derby but followed that with a poor Irish Derby. In the beaten field was Rheingold , second to Roberto in the Derby and winner of the Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud. Roberto took the lead 6f from home and smashed the track record.

I wouldn't be surprised if my friend Frank (Parlo) knows where to find a video of that race too

[parlo]

@Patuxet: It's a pleasure to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNsATgJA50g


Btw: John Hislop tells us in his book "The Brigadier" that even in defeat to Roberto the Brigadier beat the old track-record at York over that distance. And as you can see in the video, the Brigadier is held up just before the post as Mercer accepts defeat.

[wangkw]

I always feel very sad for My Swallow..such a talented species only won as 2yo...he was born in the
Year Of Monkey..I cant help thinking he was dropped in a wrong era :


Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard ...born in same year 1968
Roberto, Hard To Beat...born 1969
Nijinsky, Sassafras, Caro, Lombard, ALPENKONIG ...born 1967
Dahlia, Allez France ... born 1970

He didn't race with all of them..but was clearly outshined.

[Patuxet]

Back to the original thrust of this subject.

How did the going at Longchamp for this year's Arc program compare with that for last year's? Is there a European equivalent to Beyer Speed Figures or Steve Roman's Performance Figures which reflects the time of the races vis a vis the inherent speed of the track?

I ask because Sea The Stars' time of 2:26.30 is certainly more impressive than Zarkava's 2:28.80, given that Youmzaim came second to both, providing something of a constant for comparison.

[parlo]

According to www.racingpost.com the standard-time for Longchamp's 2,400 m-distance is 2:30,5 min - but there is no correction for the ground conditions given.

Zarkava ran on good to soft going, Sea the Stars on good going.