California rule changes

[Bast]

Ben B
All I said is true, my point was that all those treatment are not barbaric as described by you, and Tizway did not race in California after being nerved as of my knowledge

Pinfiring is not only barbaric, it doesn't accomplish anything. Rest is what works.

Do we pin-fire people?

[valjoe]

Bast

Although I wasn’t talking to you I’ll respond
Pinfiring was barbaric in barbaric times when it was done without anesthesia, horseman pinfire in an attempt to help horses not to torture them, when done properly and for the right condition I’m more incline to think that it works, and since it’s painless I will provide it to my horse if I think I can help him even just a little bit.

As to your question “Do we pinfire people? I don’t know, that’s beyond my expertise

[Bast]

Bast

Although I wasn’t talking to you I’ll respond
Pinfiring was barbaric in barbaric times when it was done without anesthesia, horseman pinfire in an attempt to help horses not to torture them, when done properly and for the right condition I’m more incline to think that it works, and since it’s painless I will provide it to my horse if I think I can help him even just a little bit.

As to your question “Do we pinfire people? I don’t know, that’s beyond my expertise

Do you really think the pain is over when the anesthetic wears off?

No, we do NOT pinfire people. We don't bleed them anymore, either.

The idea that further injuring tissue speeds healing is lunacy, right down there with "counterirritants".

[valjoe]

Bast,

Since you appear to like rhetorical questions here is couple more “Do we castrate people? Ride people? Make people pull wagons, or nail their shoes on.

As of the returning pain are you suggesting that we should live in pain free environment? Sounds deadly to me

I’ve had surgeries done on my bones and I was well aware of the pain and yet I was happy and grateful to get fixed, and I’m not alone there

[Bast]

Bast,

Since you appear to like rhetorical questions here is couple more “Do we castrate people? Ride people? Make people pull wagons, or nail their shoes on.

Castration was not an unusual practice in the recent past. The eunuchs in China existed as long as China had emperors. We're still "chemically" castrating some sex offenders. Slavery is still practiced in Arab countries, and I would not be shocked if some slaves were still being castrated there.

As of the returning pain are you suggesting that we should live in pain free environment? Sounds deadly to me

Pain exists for a reason-as a warning. Inflicting needless pain on yourself is an activity of the mentally unwell. Inflicting needless pain on an animal under your control is cruel.

I’ve had surgeries done on my bones and I was well aware of the pain and yet I was happy and grateful to get fixed, and I’m not alone there

I live with pain daily, but it has never occured to me to inflict more damage on myself as part of a ritual to supposedly enhance healing.

Produce some scientific data that shows pin-firing does what it is supposed to do, that it does anything other than rest would accomplish.

[BenB]

It shows definately that th ethical standards byond any proof, are different.

To me it only refers much more to the greed of someone, than the wellbeiing of the horse involved.

At least there is an proven theraphy for it, stamcel theraphy and that does work.

[oleos93]

Not sure about you all, but I am prepared and have been for some time. My horses are not and will not be on drugs.

So I guess I do not need to wait for my horses to come down from it all. My horses are not in pain anyway so I do not need it to block anything.

As far as Lasix. Well more of you need to do a study on it. When I took my course in the 90's the debate then was not if it stopped bleeding but if it improved performance. Alot of the old trainers still use it feeling it improves performance while the non educated owners think it is to stop bleeding.

It does neither. Make sure your horse is hydrated and you will not need it.....start using it and make the horse dependant on it and you will need it.

I'm covered and I knew this day would come and am glad to see it.

Who would want a horse that wins like that anyway? I just don't get it.

[valjoe]

Bast

Tnx for the info regrd castration, you’re obviously knowledgeable.

I didn’t post here to promote pinfiring so I don’t think I need to produce any proof of its efficiency to you.

The reason I post was to defend myself being indirectly accused as a trainer and owner residing in California of abusing my horses. I’ll say it again, pinfiring when done under anesthesia is not painful, horses appear to be generally happy after the procedure ,eat their food and some are even playful and if you worry so much about some residual pain you can always put them on pain medicine for a few days.

It is also LEGAL which excludes cruelty

Take care

[Bast]

I didn’t post here to promote pinfiring so I don’t think I need to produce any proof of its efficiency to you.

It might be useful to you to find out that there isn't any scientific proof of efficacy.

It is also LEGAL which excludes cruelty

Hogwash.

We declaw cats in this country which is painful after the operation. (More comes off than the claws). I think it is illegal in most of Europe.

[BenB]

This is where this thread started:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... iming-rule.

On this subject I stated what was Quoted by Valjoe.

I and many others find this kind of subjects a possiblity for abusing horses.

Not in the literal explanation, but making money from horses that cannot race without med,s and or drugs and or different treatments.

For the same reason some smart guys found out ' therapeutic" medication.

No it is medication.

Maybe this usefull for tendon treatment:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21615465

[valjoe]

It might be useful to you to find out that there isn't any scientific proof of efficacy.

Good produce me some links so I can educate myself

And what is “hogwash “

[Bast]

It might be useful to you to find out that there isn't any scientific proof of efficacy.

Good produce me some links so I can educate myself

And what is “hogwash “

http://www.gungahlinvet.com.au/papers/Firing_of_Horses_01.pdf

on pain:

"Pain could be elicited by palpation. It was significant on firm pressure to three days and had diminished by 6-10 days."

the usefulness of firing has long been in doubt:

"In a copy of The Veterinarian of 1870 a Mr Hill of Wolverhampton, while accepting that 'the day is long distant when the veterinary surgeon will be able to lay aside the firing iron', still felt that in many cases its use was 'that most barbarous of all practices'."

therapeutic value:

"Our survey of the literature has failed to reveal any compelling evidence that firing is an effective therapy with benefit or advantage to the horse. Investigators into the effects of firing state that is was of no benefit, and indeed was more likely to do harm than good, in both the short and long terms. Further, our survey has not identified a cogent explanation for how firing benefits horses. The result is that the biological grounds for making a decision on the ethics of firing are clear-cut. Firing has no therapeutic value that justifies the harm inherent to it."

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2006/november/21/pinfiring-proves-obsolete.aspx

"Proponents of firing believe scar tissue created in the leg after firing has a strengthening effect on the skin and underlying tissue. This theory has been proved to be false, because the scar tissue formed in the burned skin and underlying tissues becomes thinner and weaker over time."

[valjoe]

this study was done on soft tissue only

The AVA notes that this research was carried out on soft tissue only and is unaware of any similar work on firing of bony tissue.

Here is how you picked a sentence out of the contest to look more impresive

Larsen found no behavioral evidence of post- operative pain or irritation. Pulse rates and body temperatures were slightly elevated for various periods after termo-cautery. Marked local inflammation with heat, and swelling was noted within one hour and reached a maximum at three days. Pain on could be elicited by palpation. It was significant on firm pressure to three days and had diminished by 6-10 days.

The animal already has an injury there; I hope you know what palpation means

And here is the final conclusion on pain in the study

The Silver and Rossdale report attempts to answer the demanding question on pain and stress associated with firing. Their conclusions are useful but could not be concrete, mainly because the difficulties in assessing these phenomena. They observed that firing produced an acute period of discomfort for the first 24 hours, that animals rapidly returned to normal as judged by behavioral and biochemical grounds , and that the “stress” involved was almost certainly less than that produced by the original injury-a good ‘internal” standard.

[Bast]

this study was done on soft tissue only

The AVA notes that this research was carried out on soft tissue only and is unaware of any similar work on firing of bony tissue.

Here is how you picked a sentence out of the contest to look more impresive

Larsen found no behavioral evidence of post- operative pain or irritation. Pulse rates and body temperatures were slightly elevated for various periods after termo-cautery. Marked local inflammation with heat, and swelling was noted within one hour and reached a maximum at three days. Pain on could be elicited by palpation. It was significant on firm pressure to three days and had diminished by 6-10 days.

The animal already has an injury there; I hope you know what palpation means

And here is the final conclusion on pain in the study

The Silver and Rossdale report attempts to answer the demanding question on pain and stress associated with firing. Their conclusions are useful but could not be concrete, mainly because the difficulties in assessing these phenomena. They observed that firing produced an acute period of discomfort for the first 24 hours, that animals rapidly returned to normal as judged by behavioral and biochemical grounds , and that the “stress” involved was almost certainly less than that produced by the original injury-a good ‘internal” standard.

Clearly you have no interest in learning anything. Too bad for your horses.

I'm not wasting any more time on this subject.

Anyone who wonders about the efficacy of pin-firing, go to the links and the read them. Sometimes, the good old ways are anything but wise, useful, or good. Sometimes they are as described in the 1800s ~~barbarous.