Seattle Slew and conformation faults

[Shammy Davis]

Exfactor Fan: I retrieved the following from an interview and article on George Smith who is a noted TB conformation judge in Australia. He is speaking to yearling conformation.

. . . What about knees? The concepts 'good
knees', 'average knees', 'bad knees'
frequently come up in your sale catalogue
notes. What do those terms mean to you?

“Good knees are correct and flat and they
have a centre line running through the
canon, fetlock and hoof. Average knees are
offset, apple knees.”

What's an apple knee?

“It's when the lower part of the knee is
rounded or fleshy.”

You say some offset knees can be forgiven
and some can't. What do you forgive and
what don't you forgive with offset knees?

“I can forgive offset knees provided the
tendon behind the knee is vertical to the
fetlock joint at the rear. Bad knees are very
open and have a weak structure.”

In what ways do you consider bad knees a
problem for racehorse performance?

“Back at the knees, a concave rather than
a convex structure, can be a problem
because the strain on the tendons should be
vertical with the canon bone.” . . .

What are some faults you're willing to
forgive?

“Offset knees and immaturity. Young
horses generally grow into early faults with
time. There are too many horses broken in
with faults and not given time to mature
and so breakdowns will happen.”

What are some faults you're not willing to
forgive?

“Wide chest, small eye, back at knees,
narrow feet and sloped pasterns.”


From: George Smith and his way of seeing yearlings, December 2008

[TJ]

Edit to add:
I read someplace that although the leg turned out when he was young, the expectation was that as he got wider, things would straighten out. Does anyone know if that is what happened?

Hi Match,
What changed as he grew and developed was his toeing out in his forefeet....yet it was always slightly there. His right fore always turned out from the knee (offset) and that couldn't change. He was also a bit close behind especially as he lost conditioning....but he didn't care....it never stopped him from running on the track...nor did he ever come up sore due to his imperfections. If you take a look at this you-tube, go to 2:05 and 2:08 seconds on the picture video and you may note these faults. TJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MLewFdc ... re=related

[Matchemforever]

Thanks TJ.

Yes, I can see it there. I don't think a "perfect" horse exists. But those with a lot of heart do. I think farms who exercise their stallions do the right thing. He may have been a lion but at least he could be handled.

BTW, that offspring from the Slew line I should have purchased instead of the one I did. It was about to be a weanling and I wanted something I could ride sooner than that.

[erhrdt3]

I know this is about the great Slew, but Louis, would you happen to have the conformation report done on Ruffian? I would LOVE to see what was said about that incredible filly.

I've got some photos of Slew in his later years at the farm being ridden, from the front, and then doing a bit of a dressage type jog and even though he was older and much heavier, he still had it. What a horse.

[ElPrado]

Ruffian was a female. He'd have trouble doing it.

[erhrdt3]

they don't take conformation reports on all prospective racers? I don't know. I'm surprised we have not seen the foal photos of her either, you know, the ones you have to send in to register them?

Or was he just talking about his stallion photos?

Am confused...help. One of those days.

[ElPrado]

I don't believe he would have any access to them.

[bdw0617]

Dave C wrote:

People who are good at judging conformation in race horses are like people who make money betting on racehorses: they know they will be wrong more often than they are right but the times that they are right more than make up for the mistakes. . .

There is not a great deal written about how successful TB horse people are at sales. Most of the feedback we get is anecdotal. Wouldn't you love to know how Tabor and Magnier came to the conclusion to buy Green Monkey? Here's the top ten of expensive TB buys.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoroughbred_valuation

The only book I know of that has actually tracked an individual buying at TB sales is LUKAS AT AUCTION by Joe Bagan. After reading it I came to the same conclusion as Dave C posted above. I've forgotten the numbers, but Lukas in general probably just broke even. What kept Lukas' head above water was not purses won, but horse resale and syndications. The book suggests that 92% of all purchases do not return their original sale/auction price. Of the 289 horses Lukas purchased, only 34 made more $$$ than their purchase price. The time frame for this book was the 1980's at peak of prices at TB sales.

Diomed wrote:

. . . I have no idea of how the weekend races ended. I am in the search mode right now with my DVR. BTW, the weekend was awesome for boating.

And I thought you were a super compulsive horse woman.

see, now at this point, you have to ask, or I have to ask this quesiton


who is to say that lukas was even a successful "horse confirmation sales guy" in the first place? because he won a bunch of triple crown races? That to me does not mean much, he had owners with big pockets.


they paid half a million dollars for timber country. $150,000 for serenas song (which was a bargin)


Take someone like Ken McPeek, who went to the sale and spotted curlin and paid 57k for him. Who spotted noble's promise and paid like 20 th thousand for him or something like that and has a world class middle distance horse on dirt, turf and synthetic. He only paid $65k for the 3rd place finisher in the breeders cup juvenille rouge romance.

what I am getting at it is, it's one thing to pay 500k for a bunch of yearlings and win some big races. But Ken McPeaked ovbiopusly sees something in horses, that other people don't see because he falls on different horses.



I would be much more interested in interviewing Ken than D wayne

You make my point bdw, the people who might actually know what they are doing, are doing it quietly with no fanfare and certainly no self promotion because the money to be made comes from having the competitive edge.

IMHO, what D Wayne could do, better than anyone before him or after him IMHO, is spot HUMAN talent and put them in positions to win. I think he was a pretty mediator/above avg horseman honestly. I think he is and was an exceptional spotter of human talent.

[TJ]

IMHO, what D Wayne could do, better than anyone before him or after him IMHO, is spot HUMAN talent and put them in positions to win. I think he was a pretty mediator/above avg horseman honestly. I think he is and was an exceptional spotter of human talent.

Hi bdw,
Lukas was a hard working, interesting and educated man who came a long way up the ranks from living in a trailer with his family as a child.....as a child he and Clyde Rice (Linda Rice' dad, who was atop the trainer standings at Saratoga a couple years ago) were childhood friends and went to HS together. As youngster's they would be up before the sun and catch a number of horse sales...breaking some....other's were an easier task, simply bought, cleaned up, tweaked, shod and groomed.....and they would turn them over at the very next sale that day for a profit....they would do this all weekend long and keep rolling over their bankroll. As you said, Lukas does have an affinity for human talent, most likely because he was a Social Studies teacher and a basketball coach as a young man....but as is the case with many of us, the horses won out:>) TJ